Estelle Winsett | How Lawyers Build Credibility Before They Say a Word

Elise Holtzman: Hi, everyone. It's Elise Holtzman here, a former practicing lawyer and the host of The Lawyer’s Edge Podcast. Welcome back for another episode. Let's be honest, lawyers like to believe that if our work is strong, that's what speaks for itself. But that's not always how it plays out. How you show up visually and personally, can influence how quickly people trust you, how seriously they take you and whether they see you as a leader, or the right lawyer for them. In this episode, we're going to dig into the role personal style actually plays in credibility, executive presence and business development. You'll hear how to think about it in a way that feels intentional and aligned with who you are, instead of being something that's forced.

Before we dive in, today's episode is brought to you by the coaching team at The Lawyer's Edge, a training and coaching firm which has been focused exclusively on lawyers and law firms since 2008. Each member of The Lawyer's Edge coaching team is a trained, certified and experienced professional coach and either a former practicing attorney or a former law firm marketing and business development professional. Whatever your professional objectives, our coaches can help you achieve your goals more quickly, more easily, and with significantly less stress. To get connected with your coach, just email the team at hello@thelawyersedge.com.

My guest today, Estelle Winsett, is a former litigation attorney who now works as a style strategist for women in law. After seven years practicing law and more than a decade in legal professional development, she saw firsthand how perception, presence and visibility influence who is trusted with leadership roles, client relationships and partnership opportunities. Today, Estelle helps women lawyers align their outward presence with their expertise so they can show up with confidence, authority and authenticity in courtrooms, boardrooms and business development settings. Through speaking, consulting, and private styling, she teaches women how strategic personal style can support credibility, leadership presence and professional growth. Estelle, welcome to The Lawyer's Edge.

Estelle Winsett: Thanks for having me.

Elise Holtzman: I'm really excited to have you today. Before we dive into the questions I have for you, I know a lot of your work focuses on women lawyers. But for the men listening, I'm going to ask you, don't tune out, don't hang up, keep listening, don't turn us off. This applies to you, too, just in different ways. And I know you'll get a lot of good takeaways from our time together. So, Estelle, you practiced law and then you spent many years in professional development, in the legal space, before becoming a style strategist for women lawyers. What made you make this shift and what did you see inside the profession that made you realize how much this stuff matters, how much presence and appearance can influence lawyers' opportunity?

Estelle Winsett: I saw firsthand the transformation that women had when they leveled up their style. And it was so much more than the clothes themselves. So I had a lot of my attorney friends who were coming to me with style struggles. And for me, styles always come easily. But I learned later on, there are a lot of people where this is a huge pain point. And so I was seeing that women attorneys who did not know how to dress their body shape, or who didn't know how to look put together, were using a lot of their mental energy, trying to figure out what to wear and they weren't getting the results they wanted. And so they were spinning. And this was a lot of mental fatigue that women attorneys were starting their day with, staring at their closet for 20 minutes and not being able to find something that they felt good in. And that's how they started their day. And so it really became this catalyst for how they were showing up and that they weren't showing up in their full confidence. And so it was impacting their performance. I learned over time that style is a superpower that women can use and men as well, to craft the message they want to send. And when they don't have that ability to feel put together, it impacts their confidence.

Elise Holtzman: So as you mentioned, many women lawyers feel uncomfortable, right, thinking about style. And then there is this pressure to have to think about and manage how you show up every day. And I also know that most lawyers don't really look at it as part of their professional strategies. Like, I've got work to do and I've got to put on clothes and I know there's a certain level of outfit I'm supposed to be wearing. So why do you believe that personal style really is connected to leadership and credibility and business development and all the things that lawyers are thinking about, as they progress in their careers?

Estelle Winsett: I think the one thing that lawyers don't think about is that what you're wearing is the first nonverbal communication. And so I look at style as a tool of advocacy that can either work for you or against you. So if you leave your style and what you're wearing to the last minute, where it's an afterthought and you're showing up for court, you may be sending the wrong message. You may be sending the message that you don't have attention to detail, or that you are fidgeting in an ill-fitted outfit, because it doesn't fit your body and that's distracting the audience from looking at you, because of your movements. And so I think it's this thing that people don't think about, as part of their advocacy, but if they don't get it right, then it can reduce the appearance of your own authority and your effectiveness.

Elise Holtzman: One of the things that I think is really challenging these days and I think it largely happened as a result of the pandemic, is this idea of business casual. And obviously we had business casual before that, but at least I've noticed and you can tell me what you know. I've noticed that it's gotten more on the casual side and less on the business side, unless somebody does need to go into court or is going into a very formal client meeting.

Estelle Winsett: Yes.

Elise Holtzman: And so I'm curious, have you seen a change in the way people are dressing, first of all? And then in the messaging that's coming out of the legal profession as a result?

Estelle Winsett: Absolutely. I would say the number one concern that my clients have, when they come to me, is dressing for business casual at a law firm or in-house and how they can still come across as authoritative. When we were… when I was first practicing law, it was all suits and probably the same with you. And so it was very easy. You just had a head-to-toe suit and that was your professional attire. And then you had your weekend athleisure, or whatever you're wearing for the weekend. But most women come to me and say, I understand the head-to-toe suit for court. I've got my athleisure stuff at home. I've got nothing in between. And it's very confusing to figure out how to feel put together, while still looking somewhat casual. And that's what I help a lot of women with, is how do you use certain pieces that are elevated, but combine them with something more casual? It's the difference between men who have the sports coat, no tie dress code. Well, there is no equivalent for women. Or you see men in the office in their polos and khakis and no one bats an eye, but there's not a female equivalent to that. And most of the women that come to me, even tell me, even if the dress code allows for jeans or denim, they don't know how to look authoritative in those kinds of looks. It doesn't feel comfortable for them to wear jeans and still look credible. And so that's where they struggle a lot.

Elise Holtzman: Like you, when I started practicing law, it was all dresses or suit jackets and skirts and there was nothing else. And then my law firm, back in the 90s, decided that they were going to try Friday casual. And I, when I think about how we all showed up on that first Friday, we absolutely looked ridiculous. Nobody knew what it meant. And there was actually a male secretary, a male assistant, who was, you know, very short. And he showed up, no joke, he was wearing jeans and a red t-shirt that he had quite literally cut the sleeves off. I mean, that's how… Can you imagine? And that's how ignorant people were. And I remember several years later, after I had stepped away from the practice of law, my sister is a lawyer and she is always so put together and beautiful and all the things. And she showed up and met me in Manhattan after coming from her office and she was wearing and it wasn't a Friday, she was wearing a black pantsuit with open toed black shoes. Well, I was, I was aghast. I mean, I just couldn't believe it. Like, what do you mean? But she was so stylish, like the suit was gorgeous and the shoes were gorgeous, like everything was so well done. But I was absolutely aghast at the idea that she would be wearing pants on a Tuesday and open toed shoes. And of course, she thought I was ridiculous, because a few years had gone by and the world had changed. But to your point now, it's very confusing. And then we've got remote and we've got hybrid and we've got Zoom and all of that stuff. And even as I sit here now, I mean, you and I can see each other, although we don't use the video, when we produce the podcast, but I've been on a lot of Zoom calls today. And as my neighbor once said, when I answered the door, you know, I look good from the belly button up, right? So I think that this has just gotten so much more complicated. You talk about having a signature style. What does that mean, whether it's for men or women? And how can having a signature style, like sort of choosing a lane, help people show up with confidence?

Estelle Winsett: Yes, having a signature style, I think, is one of the most important ways to distinguish yourself from others. You know, you and I both know from going to conferences, a lot of CLEs, it's a sea of black and gray and maybe a little navy. There's some craziness going on. And it's very easy to stand out, when you're in a situation like that. So I always tell my clients, the bar is low. But when you have something that you wear that is unique to you and you consistently show up with that same image or appearance, people know what to expect from you. And that's how you build that know, like and trust factor. And so when you really give it some thought as to what is it that I want to be remembered by and you start looking at style elements and thinking, what do I gravitate towards, that can really help you figure out a way to dress in a way that feels authentic to who you are, that you're not wearing a uniform, but also in a way that makes you memorable in all the right ways. So an example for a woman might be, if she were to wear a certain color. I know I've gone to conferences before where certain women just always wore hot pink or a hot pink pantsuit or a hot pink dress, but that was their color. So in that situation, it'd be your signature color. But if you're a man and you have a certain style detail that is specific to you, whether that's a bow tie or it also could be a color, then people know what to expect from you, in that situation. So really the goal in having a signature style is consistently showing up the same way every time to make that know, like and trust factor come into play. But also it is memorable, so that when you are meeting people, they remember you from a sea of people they met at a conference, because you stood out in all the right ways.

Elise Holtzman: I can think of a couple of examples of this. So my husband, who's also a practicing lawyer and I have a friend from law school, who is a very well-known litigator, very, very effective. He always wears a bow tie, always.

Estelle Winsett: Yes.

Elise Holtzman: And that's just his signature thing. And I think, you know, my husband and I agreed if we ever saw him wearing a regular tie, we would… it would be like, you know, what have you done with John and who's occupying his body? Because it's just… it's so out of character for him. I asked him once if he had any regular ties, he said he had one. You know, he felt like if he had to wear one, he should have one in the closet. There's also somebody else I know that I've interviewed on the podcast before. Her name is Paula Edgar and Paula is well known, do you know Paula? Yeah, she's great. And so she's well known for showing up in very brightly colored glasses. Her glasses are a part of her signature look. She wears fantastic dresses that are very brightly colored. And if you know Paula, you know that woman shows up with confidence. You know she's in the room. She's a force. But I think part of it is her personal style. And then the last example that comes to mind for me and you and I were just talking about this before we got started today, is that I was recently at a conference and I met someone for the first time, who you and I know, it turns out you and I both know. And the reason we wound up meeting is because she was wearing a pink pantsuit head to toe and I was wearing a black pants but a blazer in the same color she was wearing and so in that sea of black and navy and gray, we saw each other, had a little fun with the conversation and I'm actually excited to report that she's going to be an upcoming guest on the podcast. So, yeah. So I think that, you know, this can be a way for people to connect and for you to be memorable, but also, as you say, just to feel good about yourself.

Estelle Winsett: When you feel like you're wearing something that lights you up and that feels true to who you are, then you aren't going to be showing up as an imposter, because what you're wearing is supporting you. It's helping you embody who you are and the message you send to the world about who you are.

Elise Holtzman: What are some of the common wardrobe challenges you see with lawyers? And of course, most of your examples are probably with women, especially as they start moving ahead in their careers and they're stepping into leadership roles, perhaps rainmaking roles.

Estelle Winsett: Both for men and women, we can get into a style rut, where we just don't think about our wardrobe. And we keep wearing the same thing, but we are in a different place within our own career. For example, what you would wear to an on-campus interview shouldn't be the same thing you wear as a partner, because you're in a different position of leadership. And so if you don't evolve your wardrobe to keep up with your status and your years of experience, then you're basically dressing a different version of you and that's not allowing you to really show who you are today. And it can be holding you back, because if it doesn't, if it looks more amateur, or if it doesn't look authoritative, then you're actually ending up hurting your own credibility, if you're coming across that way. So I think if you think about on-campus interviews, I think that's a really good example. Usually you're wearing something that's nondescript. The career service offices tell you to wear something that's going to blend in, don't stand out. And that kind of thing does… It serves a purpose for you, if you're a new person at a firm, but when you're going to be in a limelight position, where you're going to be giving presentations and client-facing, then you want to do more than just okay. You don't want to blend in. You want to stand out in showing that you are a leader and understanding that you understand the rooms you're walking into.

Elise Holtzman: I think we all know this instinctively, right, if you can go into a room and look around and you see the people that are dressed in a way that elevates them, you notice them. They walk with confidence, you think good things about them, before you've even had a conversation with them. And then there are some people that, you know, and I say this with love and respect, because I do think it's challenging sometimes, but there are people who really look like, you know, they didn't think about it much, or they threw it together, at the last second. Even things like, as crazy as this sounds and I'm sort of an ironing, steaming maniac. Like, I can't walk out of the house if something's wrinkled, even if it's going to get wrinkled in five minutes. Not everybody shows up that way. So talk a little bit about that, if you would. I mean, you know, we can buy the right clothes and have someone help us put it together, especially for those of us who maybe aren't naturals at it. But what about, what about, you know, putting it together in a way that broadcasts those right messages.

Estelle Winsett: A lot of what you're alluding to, there's actually science behind it. You were saying, you know, when you walk in a room and someone wants to like you, they like what you're wearing and they assume that you are authoritative and credible. So there are a couple of things at play. There's the halo effect. If someone looks put together and they have all the attention to detail in their clothes, then you assume that they do the same thing in their work product. And so the communication about attention to detail goes beyond just the clothes themselves, but people will attribute that kind of a quality to probably your work product and how you would take care of them as a client. And so that's kind of that halo effect of thin slicing. You know, they have a very limited amount of data to go on, when they see you and people make assumptions about your credibility. And that's really because of how we're wired as humans. We have a lot of information coming at us. And so we have to take it, assess it, and then just cut to whether or not we trust someone or not. And so that's really the idea of thin slicing. And so anything you can do to stack the odds in your favor is going to set the impression that someone has of you. And then it's very hard to change an impression, when someone has a first impression of you.

Elise Holtzman: Right. And following up on what you said, I mean, that halo effect might be wrong.

Estelle Winsett: Yes, exactly.

Elise Holtzman: You know, they come across as being utterly fantastic and brilliant and you look all put together and maybe you're not really the right fit, because maybe your work isn't at that level. Whereas somebody can be absolutely brilliant, but if they look like they're not put together, you don't give them that benefit of the doubt. And it reminds me of a guy I worked with early on in my career, probably one of the most brilliant lawyers I've ever worked with. And he was known as a strategist. I mean, the most senior partners in the firm would come to him to help with structuring transactions that were incredibly complex. And yet this was a guy who regularly had oil stains on his tie and was completely wrinkled and rumpled and looked like he had just rolled out of bed. And I think he was successful despite what he looked like and perhaps would have been more successful, if he had been able to pull his appearance together, or had been interested in pulling his appearance together a little more.

Estelle Winsett: Right. So the way he was showing up, he basically was presenting a hurdle for himself that he then had to overcome. Whereas it's the same thing with dress. If you set yourself up as authoritative and that you understand the role you're playing and you understand your craft, then that's one less hurdle for you. And I think the other thing that we were taught in law school that is really to our detriment is to put your head down, do good work and that's going to help you advance. And that strategy is not what you need when you are looking to have a leadership role in a law firm. I think we assume that we are able to win cases, based on our intelligence and our past history. Whereas if we are not inviting a conversation with someone, then they can't even get to your brilliance and your competence. So style is not a replacement of competence, but it's an amplification of it. So if you want to open the door to have someone interested in hearing what you have to say, you have to have the outward presentation, or packaging match your inner expertise, in order to be in alignment and to have others really want to hear what you have to say.

Elise Holtzman: I like what you said about shifting your style over time. I mean, I don't think, and just to be clear, I don't think what you're talking about is inventing something new, right? It's just that over time, as you become more experienced, as you have more expertise, you've worked with more clients, you've gotten to know more people, you're stepping into leadership roles. Your style may have changed over time and you might be more confident and be more willing to step into that and say, this is who I am and it's okay to be this way.

Estelle Winsett: Yes, that goes right to the authenticity piece. So our style purposes change over time, because we change over time, we evolve. And a lot of times we don't have the time in our schedules to sit down and think about what do I like, in terms of my style now? And that's one of the things that I work with my clients one-on-one with to really get clear on. But if you don't go through that exercise, then you're wearing something that used to work for you, but doesn't, you feel the difference. You feel like there is a disconnect, because you're not showing up in who you are today. You're showing up as an older version of yourself. And so that interrupts your ability to show up with full confidence.

Elise Holtzman: Let's talk about some practical steps that people can take if they're sitting here thinking right now, wow, if I look in my closet, I really don't see a lot that I love. I don't really see a lot that makes me feel great about myself. And I also just don't have a lot of time to suddenly turn into some sort of Influencer, style guru, somebody who spends all of her time shopping. How does somebody like that and I think there are a lot of us out there like that, how does somebody like that get started? What are some practical steps that you can take to get yourself on the right path without deciding you have to take a month off of work to figure all of this out?

Estelle Winsett: One thing that you could ask yourself and this is actually one of the first questions I ask my clients, is what is the message you want to send through your wardrobe? What is the message you want others to get, when they first meet you, for the very first time? And come up with some words to describe that, whether that is authoritative, approachable, maybe it is intimidating, if you're going into court and need that armor on. Whatever it is for you, you want to think about the message you want others to think when they see you. You can then use that as a barometer for measuring what you have in your existing wardrobe. And when you can pull up a garment and say, does this say authoritative, commanding? And if it doesn't, then that gives you a clue that your wardrobe is not in alignment. And you can really do that through the pieces you have. And what I always say is I think the pieces in your wardrobe need to earn their way in there. If they don't, if they used to work for you and they don't anymore, then someone else can love them, but they're not doing you any favors by having them in your closet. And it's time to say goodbye to them and find those pieces that make you feel great now.

Elise Holtzman: Somebody once suggested that the way you upgrade your closet is taking everything out of your closet and then only putting back the things that you're actually going to use. And first of all, the prospect of that is so overwhelming, because I can't imagine what the floor and the hallway would look like, if I took everything out of my closet, it's a little scary. But I think that's what you're saying, right? Make sure, I like the idea that the pieces have to earn their place in your closet. And look, styles change too and we know this. And so I think that for our industry, we don't necessarily have to run out and have the newest, hottest thing every minute, right? What do you think about that? Because there's a lot out there that's very trendy. And you and I have been around the block enough times to know, you know, some things come and go, some things come back. Some things come back that I was sort of hoping never would come back, but they do anyway. So what do you think about that, from the perspective of the legal profession, trending versus classic, those sorts of things.

Estelle Winsett: You definitely want to have investment pieces in your wardrobe that are timeless. So when people ask me what should I spend the most money on, in my closet, it would be those pieces that are going to stand the test of time. So if you think about Kate Middleton, she has this timeless style. When she's wearing something, you can't tell if she bought it 10 years ago or yesterday. So that's really what a timeless piece will do for you. And a way to describe that is if something doesn't have a lot of embellishments, usually embellishments are what makes something trendy, like the oversized sleeve, or the exaggerated hem on something, the flare, you've seen that with the pants, we've gone wide leg, we had skinny leg, all that kind of thing. So it's anything that makes something stand out, because it's exaggerated, that's usually what's going to be a trend. And I always say have your investment pieces, those timeless pieces that you can wear for years, spend the money on them for good quality, because you'll get your use out of them. But if you want to bring in a few fun pieces that speak to your style each season, that's a way to bring in something fun. You don't have to spend a ton of money on it. And if it doesn't end up staying in style, then who cares? Because you didn't spend that much money on it. But that is how you bring in your personality and how you can have a little more fun with your style. So I think it's really about having the pieces that are an investment that aren't trendy and then seeing what speaks to you, in terms of trends and seeing if you can blend that into your wardrobe.

Elise Holtzman: Let's talk about the men for a minute. And again, I know you work primarily with women, but you know, I think about this too, because with men's suits, for example, right, the styles of the suits change. And so also depending on where you are in the world, right, if you're in Europe, men's suits are going to look very different than men's suits are going to look in the United States. And so, I mean, I think I love the European style, but I don't think it works for a lot of Americans. Do you give similar advice to the men or is it like paying attention every few years to how the suit styles have changed so that you're updating and that sort of thing?

Estelle Winsett: I think a very similar rule applies to classic pieces versus trendy pieces. So I think you're going to get the most bang for your buck as a man, if you're buying a suit that is in a classic silhouette. You know, I think now you've seen a lot of the pant legs on suits for men are a lot more tailored. And if that's what you like, go for it. But if you get something that is maybe not quite as tailored, is more straight leg, that's probably going to be the kind of thing that you can wear for years to come, because that may change. So I think it's about understanding those classic pieces and finding those brands that always provide classic pieces. If you can find that, then you can feel pretty comfortable that the style is going to last a while. So I think it's about figuring out what you want to spend your money on and what is going to give you more bang for your buck from a long-term perspective.

Elise Holtzman: Right. And I think even for the men, I mean, my husband happens to love to do fun things with his socks, right? And so, you know, he still shows up in court and in the boardroom looking like he's supposed to, but then he gets to have some, you know, a little bit of fun with the socks or the tie collar or whatever it may be. So I think that there's opportunity there for men as well, you know, to have a little bit of fun with it and to feel that you have the opportunity to, you know, to channel your personality into how you're showing up every day.

Estelle Winsett: There are so many ways you can add in personality that people don't think about. And I think one of the easiest ways, if you're trying to dip your toe into a new style personality, is start with accessories. You're not committing to a full head-to-toe something. You can try earrings or jewelry, you can try shoes that are part of a new style. So there's a way to slowly upgrade your style in a way that feels more authentic to you, without going completely crazy and doing a 180 with your style.

Elise Holtzman: What are some things that people can do to get some help with this, right? And so I know, you know, you're a stylist, you speak and all of that and you work with individual clients. Tell us where you're located, by the way.

Estelle Winsett: Oh, sure. So I'm in Memphis, Tennessee, but all my clients are virtual. Even my Memphis attorney clients, I shop for them virtually, because the inventory is much better online.

Elise Holtzman: Isn't that true? I'm glad you raised that actually, because that's one of the things that I think is very frustrating for people these days, is when you go into department stores, they have very, very limited stock. And so there you are, you finally found a few hours in your schedule, you finally showed up at the mall or the department store or whatever it is and there's just not a lot there. So I think that's a good point is that, you know, don't be afraid to do some online shopping. And I guess if that means returning some things, you know, that's the way the world is now. But the idea that you can get virtual help from somebody I really like. And then, of course, there's the idea of a personal shopper in a department store that I think people don't take advantage of as frequently as they could. So can you share a little bit about what that could look like for someone, whether male or female?

Estelle Winsett: What you're alluding to is really getting clarity on what your style is now. And so that can be very intimidating for certain men and women to really understand what that is. But one thing I do with my clients is I do a Pinterest board exercise with them to really look at certain visual images and see, okay, what are you naturally drawn to? And so I think once you can identify your style, kind of vibe or aesthetic, then you can build a wardrobe that's consistent with that. And so I do have a style quiz that I designed for women attorneys that gives them one of four broad buckets of the types of different style personalities I see for women attorneys. So I think similar to men, if you get some clarity on what you like, I mean, it can even be as simple as looking around your office, seeing people you know and like their clothes, then you kind of start to notice, okay, well, what is it? What are the themes here between these people that I'm enjoying their style? And how can I start to bring more of that into my wardrobe.

Elise Holtzman: We're going to post that style quiz that you have on our website along with the episodes, so that people have the opportunity to take that, if they think it would be helpful to them. But I do encourage people, you know, people are so busy. And you have so much on your plate as a lawyer, right? You're serving your clients. You're serving the firm. You've got opposing counsel. There may be judges in your life. People are breathing down your neck. A lot of people, women especially, of course, have so much obligation outside of the office and so many things they're trying to do outside of the office, that I think for so many people, particularly women, this really falls to the bottom of the list. And to your point, because it has such a deep impact on confidence and how you feel just when you show up in the world. And as a result, other people's opinions of you, you know, I'm just going to put in a plug for Estelle, you and all the other folks who do the kind of work that you do. You know, it's okay to invest in yourself. Right. It's okay. And maybe not just okay, but really important to be willing to invest some time, money and energy in this piece of it. You know, even though I'm usually on here talking to people about, you know, business development and leadership development and all of those things. And, you know, we could think about fashion as being a little bit of a foofy topic. But I just, you know, based on all the things that you've said and really how it can impact people and how it impacts how other people view them and want to engage with them. I think this is really important.

Estelle Winsett: Well, I think the other thing is a lot of women do not realize just how much mental energy they're using in their wardrobe. And until you point it out to them, they don't realize that they're scrolling endlessly for hours trying to find something to wear at an upcoming event, where they're speaking. Or they don't realize that they're literally spending 25 minutes in the morning staring at their closet trying to figure out what to wear, only to end up wearing the same three outfits they hate. And so I think if you were to really look at the time and energy that they're already leaking towards style, but not even having a solution, then it makes a lot of sense to outsource that, have it complete, have it done so there's no more hanging over your head about what to wear. You can then use the time how you choose, whether that's to spend more time with your family or to bill a client. So it's the “Are you the best person to be handling this particular task in your life”? If you are not the expert and you're spinning your wheels and you are an expert at billing clients, use that time to bill the clients and the money you get, outsource it to a stylist. So it's just an inefficient use of your own time.

Elise Holtzman: I love that. I mean, I love that we're putting this into the framework of billable hours, too, for lawyers, because we know how important that is. And we know that, you know, every hour that we spend spinning our wheels on something like this. And also, by the way, to your point, mental energy. Right. It's not just the billable hour, but it's soul sucking. You know, and it can just be really uncomfortable and miserable. And so why are we doing that to ourselves, when there are people in the world that can help us? So I encourage people, you know, take, especially for the women lawyers, take Estelle's quiz. We'll make sure that we get that posted in a place where you can see it. And then ask yourself the question, right, is this stuff the highest and best use of my time? And if it's not, which I suspect it's not, because the people who are listening, we didn't go into the fashion biz, we went into the law biz and that's the highest and best use of your time. So I think that's really, really good advice. Estelle, as we wind up our time here together today, I'm going to ask you a question that I ask all of my guests at the end of the show. There's a phenomenon, called the curse of knowledge, where experts sometimes forget that what is so obvious and natural to them is not at all obvious to others. When it comes to aligning how you look on the outside with the value that you are delivering to clients and to your firm as a lawyer, as a leader. What's a principle or piece of advice that may seem obvious to you, but you think is important for lawyers, especially women lawyers, to hear?

Estelle Winsett: I would say I think the most important point of style, or the biggest marker of style, is having clothes that fit your body well. And as women, we go through so many different hormonal changes and various changes throughout our lives that our body shapes are always changing. And no one teaches us how to dress our body shape. But if you're wearing something that is too big for you, you think it's going to be flattering, but it actually ends up wearing you. So you walk into the room and the clothes are wearing you, which tends to give off a vibe of you're amateur, or you don't know how to dress your body shape, or you're a little kid wearing your dad's oversized blazer. So that works against your credibility and it shows, in some ways, that you're not comfortable dressing your body shape, or you're not comfortable showing up in a polished way. And so I think learning how to dress your body shape and even going to a tailor to get little tweaks here and there, the difference in how you present yourself, when you wear something that fits you like a glove, is massive. And that's more important, I think, than the money you spend on clothes. I always say, buy the best quality of fabric you can afford or the best quality clothes you can afford, but the fit is the most important factor and it's something that people miss. It's worth the money to go to the tailor, even though it may seem like an inconvenience to have something fit you like a glove. Things are not supposed to fit off the rack everyone great. So I think something as simple as having a tailor and going and taking the effort to shorten the sleeves, to nip in the waist, are going to be things that are going to make you come across as polished and professional and maybe something you hadn't thought about.

Elise Holtzman: Fantastic. All right. Yes. A good reminder about the tailoring. And for those of us who are short and have short arms and all that stuff, it's something that I have no choice but to do anyway. But it is a good reminder to make sure, you know, make sure the pants fit you like a glove and the jacket fits you properly and all of that sort of thing. Not saying tight, but appropriate. Right. Because if it's too tight, it's no good. And if it's too loose, it's no good. So we've got to get it to fit our bodies. Estelle, thank you so much for being here today. It was such a pleasure to have you. It's not something that I get to talk to people about very often, so it was really nice to have you here today, and it'll be a great value to the folks that are listening. And I also want to thank our listeners for tuning in. If you've enjoyed today's show, please subscribe, rate and review us at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. In the meantime, be bold, take action and make things happen. We'll see you next time.