Emily Stedman | What Law Firm Leaders Need to Understand About Lawyer Well-Being

Elise Holtzman: Hi everyone, it's Elise Holtzman here, a former practicing lawyer and the host of the Lawyer's Edge podcast. Welcome back for another episode. Lawyer well-being gets talked about a lot, but most of that conversation is directed at individual lawyers.

Manage your stress, set boundaries, ask for help. What's missing is an honest conversation about the role law firm leaders play in creating the conditions that make well-being possible or impossible in the first place. Before we dive in, today's episode is brought to you by the coaching team at the Lawyer's Edge, a training and coaching firm which has been focused exclusively on lawyers and law firms since 2008.

Each member of the Lawyer's Edge coaching team is a trained, certified, and experienced professional coach and either a former practicing attorney or a former law firm marketing and business development professional. Whatever your professional objectives, our coaches can help you achieve your goals more quickly, more easily, and with significantly less stress. To get connected with your coach, just email the team at hello@thelawyersedge.com.

Today's guest is a commercial litigation partner at a big law firm who has made lawyer well-being a central part of her public voice, at real professional risk in an industry that hasn't always rewarded that kind of candor. In this episode, she's going to make the case that well-being isn't just a personal responsibility issue, it's a leadership issue, and if you lead a firm, you have the opportunity to be part of the solution. I am delighted to welcome my guest today, Emily Stedman.

Emily is a commercial litigation partner at Hush Blackwell in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where she handles complex business disputes from pre-suit negotiation through trial and appeal. She graduated from the University of Mississippi School of Law as Editor-in-Chief of the Law Review, clerked for a federal judge in the Eastern District of Wisconsin, and was promoted to partner at Hush Blackwell in 2024. What sets Emily apart in the profession is what she has chosen to do with her platform alongside her legal work.

She is a nationally recognized advocate for lawyer well-being, speaking, writing, and posting with unusual candor about the mental health realities of practicing law in a large firm. She was recognized by corporate counsel with a Women, Influence, and Power in Law Award in the Mental Health and Well-Being Initiative category, and she has served on the Wisconsin Task Force on Lawyer Well-Being. She's also someone who has been openly vulnerable about her own experience, which takes a particular kind of courage in this profession.

Emily, welcome to The Lawyer's Edge. Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to have you because this is something that people in the industry have been talking about more and more over the last few years, which is fantastic, and yet we still seem to have a big challenge with it, right?

I think that while some people are willing to talk about it, many others would still like to sweep this under the rug, not acknowledge that we have this problem, or if we do have this problem, it's a problem that other people have and they should solve it. So you have built a very successful career in big law commercial litigation, which is no small task to begin with, and at the same time, you've been very publicly vocal about mental health and well-being in the profession. That's not a combination, as I've said, that most lawyers feel comfortable with.

So what prompted you to start speaking openly about this?

Emily Stedman: I think it was a couple of things. One, I was deeply struggling myself. I was a mid-level associate, hoping to be promoted to senior associate pretty soon, and I was also thinking about leaving the law altogether.

So this was around 2019, 2020, and I think the pandemic also exacerbated some of this introspection for me, but I really struggled as an associate in my first four, four and a half years of practice, and I ended up looking to lateral to change firms, and as I did that, I was also serving as president of the Young Lawyers Division for the State Bar of Wisconsin, and in that role, you're supposed to have a theme, and I said to myself, you know, I'm struggling.

I've come to realize that some of my colleagues are also struggling. I'm just going to talk about this. I don't know what it looks like.

I don't know what the goal is, but at every board meeting we have for the Young Lawyers Division, I'm going to talk about this, and that led me to host or co-host a CLE on mindfulness for attorneys in Wisconsin that was remarkably well-received. I had no clue that there was an appetite for that, and then it also led me to be tapped to serve on the Wisconsin Task Force for Lawyer Well-Being. Around the same time, because I was looking to maybe lateral somewhere to a new firm, I took an online course on leveraging LinkedIn.

I had not touched my LinkedIn profile since I had gotten my job at my first firm. I just wanted to make sure it was up to date if I stuck around and stayed in the law, and I started to see attorneys using LinkedIn like a blog. I was like, oh, well, I've always loved writing, and I dabbled in blogging as a true millennial back in the day, and so I started posting, and at first it was just, I don't, it would probably be embarrassing to go back and look at what I was posting in the beginning, but I also took that opportunity to post about what we were doing on the Wisconsin Task Force for Lawyer Well-Being, and I was chairing a subcommittee on the business case for Lawyer Well-Being and really was focusing on how firms' bottom lines actually improve if your employees and attorneys are well, and as soon as I started posting about that, I got traction.

It was not on my posts. It was not reactions to my posts, but it was in DMs, and then at events outside of work when I would run into people, they would go out of their way to tell me, thank you for talking about this, so I knew there was something there. I knew there was some interest, and there was some desire, and I just started running with it.

At the same time, when you lateral, it's like a clean slate, right? So I took everything I had learned from my first firm. I took the burnout, the tears, the panic attacks, and I said, I'm going to do it differently.

I'm going to be authentically myself. I'm going to practice in a way that makes sense for me, and if the firm doesn't like it, I'll leave, and my firm, Harsh Blackwell, was remarkably supportive, and I used that support, which was at the beginning was really just not telling me to stop, right? It wasn't like they were like, keep going or acknowledging me for doing it, but they weren't asking me to not do it, and I ran with it from there, and you mentioned courage in the introduction.

I get that word a lot. I get brave a lot. I am trying more and more to lean into that because now I've been doing it almost six years, and I'm still one of the only ones that's in the trenches at a big firm talking about it as openly and candidly as I am, which sometimes is frustrating.

I wish there were more of us, but I still believe it's extremely important, particularly for the generation coming up after me.

Elise Holtzman: Emily, when you say that as a new lateral, you just practiced like yourself, you were authentic and did it your way, and that the firm certainly didn't tell you to stop, what was it that you were doing that was different than what you had been doing before?

Emily Stedman: I was more intentional about the work that I was doing at my first firm, and I still say yes mostly to everything, but I was more vocal about the work I wanted to do, the type of work I wanted to do. I was more intentional about the type of people I wanted to work with so that I didn't end up saying yes for the sake of saying yes and doing work that did not fulfill me. I also implemented all my systems and time management and boundaries that I have, and I say that lightly because one of the big things that I like to talk about is I made partner at an AMLA 100 firm.

That's not easy to do, and you can't do it by working fewer hours, so it's not that I don't work a lot, but I just sort of leaned into I'm a morning person. I'm not a night owl. It's okay if I'm not checking my email right before I go to bed, and everyone knows I go to bed pretty early because I can make up for that in the morning time, and little things like that that really added up for me personally over time.

Elise Holtzman: A lot of lawyers and honestly a lot of managing partners, practice group leaders, people who are in leadership positions still operate as though partnership and personal well-being are fundamentally in tension with one another, which is what you just said, right? It's not like, okay, I'm putting in 1,400 hours a year and making partner. Based on your path to partner, what do you think a sustainable career in big law actually requires, and what is that demand not just of the lawyer but of the law firm?

Emily Stedman: For me, what it looks like is, yes, at any firm, small to the biggest of big firms, there's going to be expectations. There's going to be metrics that you have to meet if you want to stay and make partner. Once you make partner, there's metrics if you want to stay as partner, if you want to make equity partner.

That's not going away, but I think what I realized is my firm's much larger now than it was when I joined, but even when I joined, if there were 750 attorneys, there's no way everyone's doing it the exact same way. There's no formula in how each individual human is meeting those expectations. Rather than looking at what was for me primarily white married men, a lot of whom had stay-at-home spouses, and how they're doing it, I said, what makes sense for me?

And so within those metrics, there are ways, I think, to exercise small efforts of autonomy and control that personalize it for you and make it sustainable for you. So those metrics are never going to go away, but you can look at it and think, I mentioned I'm a morning person, so I often leave the office earlier than people would imagine, but I'm often here very early in the morning, right? And it's kind of giving up that idea of someone's watching me and making sure when I'm in the office nine to five and saying, I'm getting my work done, I'm being an adult, no one's questioning me, and shifting your mindset around some of those internal assumptions you make about what it means to meet those metrics.

Elise Holtzman: That sounds like a mindset shift, right? That I don't have to do it necessarily the way everybody else is doing it. It's okay if there are nights that I'm not here and people don't see me.

I think that's actually a little bit easier since the pandemic because everybody knows that there's so much, you know, remote work going on. Those mindset shifts are pretty challenging to implement, right? Especially when we know that compensation systems and promotion decisions are still heavily rewarding hours and maybe visibility.

So what are some of the mindset shifts? When you're talking to other lawyers about this or putting on programs for lawyers about this, what are some of the other mindset shifts that you think need to happen for them?

Emily Stedman: First, you have to lay the groundwork. I talk about this as sort of like a credit card. Building credit. I was able to cash in on my reputation after some time, right? I came in at both my firms, hit the ground running, and once you do that and people trust you, you can start implementing some of those boundaries. I think it's trusting yourself that you can do that.

It comes very close to a little bit of that mindset of begging for forgiveness, not asking for permission, which is extremely hard for me. I'm a rule follower. I'm very type A. I want to do what I'm told. I want to do what's expected of me. I think related to that is questioning what's actually expected of you.

Are you just making assumptions about what people are expecting? Are you telling yourself that, you know, partner XYZ is roaming the halls looking for you? And really questioning some of that self-talk and that internal pressure that we're putting on ourselves.

For me, I am constantly feeling like I'm a failure. I laugh about it now because it sounds silly to say it out loud, especially in a public space. But it was learning to say, what does the evidence show?

The evidence shows that I'm meeting my hours, that my reviews are good, that I left early to go to a dentist appointment and no one said, hey, Emily, where are you? And noticing those patterns and using those to build your confidence to start implementing some of those personal decisions that help you practice. And I think you mentioned you don't have to do it the way it's always been done.

I've never in my entire life been good at accepting, well, this is how we've always done it as an answer. So some of that is just my internal personality. But I think that's a lot of the problem in the law is that it's kind of twofold. It's for white men particularly, it worked. It worked for 100 years. They all did it the same way and it all worked for them.

Luckily, we're not all the way there yet, but we have a much more diverse workplace even in big firms now. And so there's more evidence that it can be done differently and be done just as well if not sometimes better. But there's a mentality, I think, that sometimes leadership pushes back on because they didn't realize they could do it differently.

So there's a sensitivity there of like, well, what do you mean I could have been at home more with my children kind of thing, right? It's like, I don't fault anyone for doing it the way they did, but that doesn't mean it can't be done differently now. And I'm not here to fight that battle with my firm leader.

My firm leadership's pretty solid. I mean, Hush is a great firm. I wouldn't have stayed and made partner if it wasn't. And my goal isn't to change my whole firm. My goal is not to change the whole profession. My goal is to change it for me so that I can stay and to model that for other people and sort of influence within my zone and sphere of influence so that those around me feel empowered to do it differently too.

Elise Holtzman: So many of the things you mentioned strike me as really good coaching, right? Because as a coach, the kinds of questions that you were asking, how true is it that it has to be done this way? Where's the evidence that it has to be done this way?

Where's the evidence that even though you're doing it this way, it's actually working, right? Is it true that people are looking for you in the hallways and thinking bad thoughts about you because you left to go to a dentist appointment, right? Because we do have what you might call head trash around this stuff, right?

We adopt ideas from other people. There are things we've heard and we make them true as if it's somehow global truth, when in fact it may not be true at all. And so I think that challenging ourselves, asking ourselves that question is such a good thing to do.

Let's talk a little bit about your involvement in bar leadership and the Wisconsin Task Force on Lawyer Wellbeing. From that vantage point, as you look across the profession and you've said, look, I'm not here to tilt at windmills and change the whole world, but I think you are doing that, whether you set out to do it or not. What are firm leaders that you see getting right and wrong about wellbeing?

Emily Stedman: I think one thing I'm seeing more and more is firm leadership talk about it. So either themselves, we had our chair emeritus of our firm, shared personal stories at women's events, at partner meetings, at internal events. And again, so that's leading by example, right?

Personalizing, bringing an element of humanity and shared humanity to the role, even though she was at the tippy, tippy top of our firm, or making space for it, right? So recently I spoke at Troutman Pepper's Richmond office. So they had a big time partner that wanted to bring someone in to talk about Lawyer Wellbeing.

So they're making space for the conversation and for their attorneys. It's not just for non-timekeepers or non-billing business professionals. I think what they're getting wrong is just assuming that because other people are talking about it, it's changing or almost delegating it down to business professionals.

You know, I think a lot of, and I think about this a lot. You mentioned coaching. People ask me all the time, do I want to be a coach? I'm a teacher in a past life. You know, this is helping others and guiding and mentoring others is, is very rewarding for me. But I know deeply that a lot of my credibility comes because I'm in the trenches. I'm a practicing attorney. I am doing this while I go to trial, right? While I take 20 depositions in a month.

And that I think coupled with the reality of it's not about perfection and we're all just doing our best cannot be delegated down or out to business professionals because attorneys notoriously won't buy in unless their leadership is modeling it to.

Elise Holtzman: I hear this a lot and I suspect you hear it as well. More senior lawyers pushing back when they hear words like boundaries, right? I think the minute that senior lawyers hear the word boundaries, they think, well, that means that they're not going to do their work and they're not going to get the hours in.

And in fairness, that's how law firms make money, right? Because they make money through billable hours and we are seeing billable hours drop over time. I mean, for some firms, some lawyers are going to roll their eyes at this because at some firms that isn't happening, but across the board, research is showing that hours are dropping over time.

And so what kind of pushback have you gotten? Because it sounds like at your firm and in some other places, you've gotten open arms. You've gotten people to say, wow, this is great, Emily. We're really glad you're talking about this. Talk about this more. Come talk to our firm about this.

Where are you seeing pushback and are you getting that personally? Do you have people saying, well, this is ridiculous? You know, what do you expect people to do? Just bill a thousand hours a year and make big money.

Emily Stedman: Yeah. So I'm pretty careful about that. And we talked about this a little bit already. Like I work hard. I never missed my hours as an associate. Like even now with my billable hours drop, I'm doing all the business development, things like this hustling. And like I'm tracking 2400 hours for my job every year. Right. So like that, that I know that gives me some street cred, right.

That creates room for me to talk more openly about this. But what I refuse to do, I refuse to be that stereotype that is like the younger generation doesn't want to work hard. That's just not true.

Millennials were bashed. We were bashed about this forever. And it's not that we don't want to work hard. It's we want it to look differently. Right. I wanted to make partner and I did. I want to make equity partner and I believe I will as long as that stays my goal. I just want it to look differently. And that's okay. But it requires a give and take from both sides. And so what I've started to talk about is Gen Z. I am envious of you.

You are so good at saying no. They hold to their workout routines way better than I ever could imagine myself doing and that I still struggle with 10 years into private practice. But at the same time, what are your goals?

If you want to make partner, if you want to be GC, if you want to be a judge, you are going to have to say yes more than you would like. That's the reality. Elder millennials, Gen X boomers, we are going to have to get used to people saying no and having better boundaries or we're not going to retain talent.

So it requires a give and take. And I think it requires much more of a conversation than anyone in the profession has been willing to have. Why don't they want to have that conversation? Because it's not billable and it takes longer to manage. But a lot of this I think is a management issue. Attorneys manage people.

We're never taught how to do that. I've been fortunate to have work experience outside of law, even being editor-in-chief of the law journal, involvement in my sorority where I was managing peers. Teaching is managing humans.

And so I'm able to rely on those experiences to try to be a good manager. And being a good manager of other humans and getting buy-in from other humans requires a lot of these conversations. And if you want teams of people who are loyal to you, you need to learn what motivates them and you need to lead by example.

The people who want to work with you and stick with you are going to be the people who want to practice like you and live like you. That's what I tell associates. Work with as many partners as possible and find the ones who are living a life and having a career that you think you want one day and ask them how they're doing it and go and try to do it that way. And I think we have to talk about it more. And warm and fuzzy conversations are not natural in the law or in big law.

Elise Holtzman: I think the generational differences are very striking when it comes to this issue. Absolutely. And in my generation, no one talked about it.

Emily Stedman: Absolutely.

Elise Holtzman: It was an embarrassment. If somebody was having a mental health crisis, if somebody was talking about work-life balance, it was all considered it wasn't macho enough and obviously you were a slacker, there was something wrong with you. I think the conversation has changed dramatically over the years and that's due to folks like you standing up and being willing to have the conversations.

There are some very brave people in the profession who have really suffered mental health crises who have been willing to talk about it. Again, in a profession that hasn't been particularly open to that. Absolutely.

What we've been talking about today seems like a lot of work-life balance. And so I think that the concept of what does well-being mean on a day-to-day basis versus avoiding a mental health crisis? Yes.

And how are people talking about that? Because I was kind of thinking, okay, this conversation really is we're talking a lot about how to have a life and maybe that's what well-being is. But some folks I've talked to on the podcast or I've talked to outside the podcast about these things, they've had mental health crises that have been very, very dramatic.

So when you talk about well-being and you're on these task forces and all those sorts of things, are people talking about the everyday well-being or are they talking about avoiding mental health crises or is it all just in the mix?

Emily Stedman: It's all in the mix. I definitely come at it from I had a mental health crisis that was avoidable. Here are things you can do to build a toolkit to help you avoid it and notice the signs of burnout, notice the signs of panic attacks so that you can catch them sooner and not have the crisis that potentially leads you to leaving the law altogether.

That is how I come at it. When I give any talk, I mean, I gave a talk yesterday on time management and I loop this in to that even, that well-being, all definitions of well-being that are good. So the two I rely on are one from psychology today and then the ABA's definition of all your well-being.

It's not just mental health. We tend to focus on mental health, which is extremely important, but well-being is about essentially your whole human self, physical well-being, mental well-being, spiritual well-being, intellectual well-being, social well-being, and you can't focus on all of those every day and every given minute. But what I preach and I am getting preachy here a little bit is it's recognizing your entire human self.

There are sometimes days, weeks, months, years where I'm a lawyer first and foremost for a long stretch of time. Last year was one of those years for me, you know, work ebbs and flows. And so then when it calms down, I can bring some of those other bits and pieces of myself forward.

And that to me is what is really important about talking about well-being in the law. Also to get over that stigma of it means you don't want to work hard. It's not not working hard.

It's not necessarily even working less. It's recognizing when you've worked too much and you need to pause and take a break and recover because you won't be able to keep working hard. Or it's recognizing and getting really good at finding even the smallest moment where you can turn that work engine down or off and take a break and do something else that fulfills who you are as a human.

And you're right. I graduated law school in 2013. We were told not to ask about lawyer well-being or work-life balance in interviews. I mean that I've met the tail end of that as an elder millennial. Now, if a law student doesn't ask me about it, I think it's kind of odd. Like I just am prepared for that question, but it is, I think it's about your whole human self.

And that's really where I think millennials shine is we say, I want to be an attorney. I want to be a partner in an AMLA 100 firm, but I also want to be a dog mom. I also want to be a tennis player. I want to do all these other things. And we're much more open about that. And we bring our full selves into the work. And you know, it's more than just golfing with clients too, right?

Elise Holtzman: Yeah. The generations before you of which I am a member, we weren't allowed to do that. Right. In fact, we were told not to do that. It was just assumed that we were not going to do that.

And if you did that, you were weird and you obviously didn't care and that's trickled down. Right. And for better or worse, my generation is the generation that's primarily in leadership right now. And so, yeah, I think a lot of us say, wow, we wish we would have had that. And yet we still default to what we're used to.

Emily Stedman: Habits.

Elise Holtzman: Right. Habits. And so it's understandable. It's not necessarily desirable. So I'm curious, Emily, for a leader, a law firm leader, whatever that looks like, I don't care what the title is. It could be managing partner. It could be practice group leader. It could be you're just a leader because people respect and follow you and they and they admire you. What is one concrete thing that you think law firm leaders can do, let's say this year, right now, that would actually make a difference for the people with whom they're working? And and I and I'm just going to frame it as, you know, for the people in leadership who are of a generation that still is a little bit eye rolly about all of this. I try to put it in concrete terms. Right.

So that you are getting the best work out of them. So you are getting, you know, the most hours out of them that they're willing to give you, that you are retaining your talent and building a team and building the kind of culture that attracts clients and retains clients. Right. So if we put it in those terms that maybe that generation is really focused on and that law firm leaders have to be focused on because they're running a for profit business, obviously, what is something that you think that they can do to be helpful to those around them and help them achieve their goals for the firm?

Emily Stedman: Honestly, tell the truth, because this is what I think. I like Gen X a lot and I relate to Gen X a lot because my parents are older. So I was raised, you know, my sister in law is nine years older than me. So we we have some very distinct differences in our generation, but a lot of overlap as well. And I find Gen X is often supportive of millennials because they wish they could have talked about it. Right.

But Gen X is doing these things. Right. Like I know our current firm chair has multiple children and is sometimes taking calls and sending emails from their sporting events.

Right. Talk about that. Clients want to know that your associates want to know that you're doing that. So instead of hiding these things that we all know you're doing, you are taking a vacation. Right. You're going on spring break.

Just be open about it. You know, and I know that feels scary and that's easy for me to say because I've now been doing it a long time. So I'm much more comfortable being open and vulnerable, vulnerable about it. But like, I can remember my boomer father who was GC of a company. He took us on vacation. Right.

He went skiing with us and post that on LinkedIn. Like, you know, no one's going to doubt your chair of the firm. Right. Your office managing partner. No one's going to doubt you're not working hard. So share those moments where you are being a human because you are doing that. Right. We know you're doing that. You wouldn't.

I mean, you just wouldn't be a full human if you weren't doing it. Very, very few people in the upper echelons of firms are actually just grinding all day. And I think increasingly your clients want that as well. So that I would say, share, share more, be more open. I know it's scary. Start with your assistant. I don't know. Start with the associate on your file or a paralegal, but tell them about those human moments for sure. And not just the fun ones.

You know, I think one thing that's super valuable is sharing, particularly with associates. I remember what it was like in your shoes. I remember it being hard. I remember figuring out how to take time off and being afraid of all the work that was going to be in my inbox when I come back. Share those real human moments. And it doesn't have to be on LinkedIn.

It doesn't have to be at a firm-wide or office-wide meeting. It can really just be in those candid moments when you're preparing for a deposition or working on due diligence late into the evening.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah. I love that. Share the truth and share your humanity is kind of what I'm hearing.

So Emily, as we wrap up our time together today, there's a question that I want to ask you that I ask all of my guests at the end of the show. There's a phenomenon called the curse of knowledge where experts sometimes forget that what is so obvious and natural to them is not at all obvious to others. When it comes to creating a career that you love, that you want to stay with, that you don't feel like you need to run away from, a career where you can actually thrive, not just survive, what's a principle or piece of advice that may seem obvious to you but is really important for lawyers to hear?

Emily Stedman: Yeah. I'm going to get really granular and practical on this. And that is ultimately you're in control of your time. It's really easy in the beginning to just default to I'm available whenever anyone needs me. And that's how it's got to be. And you do need to be reasonably available, right?

You have to be responsive full stop to partners, to clients, to colleagues. But that doesn't mean 24-7 anymore. And that mentality, that mindset shift of even if it's one hour today, even if it's 15 minutes today, I can put that block on my calendar and I can choose for myself what I'm going to do in those 15 minutes. I don't need to check my email. And take it no matter how small that is and build on that over time. You don't change your whole practice.

You don't build that sense of autonomy. You don't build that bravery and belief that you actually have the right to do that overnight. It takes practice in those very small moments of exercising some control and honestly selfishness that a lot of us give up as we're achieving these gold stars and really believing that you can do that.

And there will be times in your career that you cannot do that. If you're in trial, if you have a big deal going down, a big closing that keeps getting pushed. But the more you practice that in the moments where you can, the more automatic it becomes. And that sense of control and choice and autonomy is what will make your work-life satisfaction increase dramatically over time.

Elise Holtzman: It's such good advice. Start small, right? Own those few moments and then be intentional about letting it grow.

Emily Stedman: Yes. And then once you're in leadership, once you have that influence, you're modeling that for other people. And that goes back to what I said about firm leadership telling the truth.

They are doing these things. And yes, the chair of my firm, the chief executive officer of my firm, they've earned that, right? And so they can do more of it than I can. But by modeling it, they're signaling to that day one associate that if you meet your metrics, if you do what is expected of you, over time, those small moments of autonomy and control and choice snowball. And that's what allows you to build the career that is satisfactory and sustainable.

Elise Holtzman: Fantastic. All right, Emily, this is such a good conversation, one that more people need to be having internally. I'm so glad that you were able to come and offer your time and your care when it comes to this issue. So thank you so much for being here today.

Emily Stedman: Thank you for having me.

Elise Holtzman: I'm going to thank our listeners for tuning in as well. If you've enjoyed today's show, please subscribe, rate, and review us at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. In the meantime, be bold, take action, and make things happen. We'll see you next time.