Tina Solis | The Lateral Playbook: What Lawyers Need to Know Before Changing Firms

Elise Holtzman: Hi, everyone. It's Elise Holtzman here, a former practicing lawyer and the host of the Lawyer's Edge podcast. Welcome back for another episode. Making a lateral move can be a game-changer for your career, or it can be a costly misstep. From market conditions to contract clauses, there's a lot to get right before you make the leap.

This episode is going to explore what lawyers should know before changing firms, including how to prepare, how to avoid common pitfalls, and how to set yourself up for long-term success in your new role. Before we dive in, today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a nine-month business development program created by women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers and supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. To learn more about Ignite, visit thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

I am delighted to welcome my guest today, Tina Solis, who is a partner at Nixon Peabody. She has built a national practice advising lawyers and law firms on high-stakes professional and business transitions. She's particularly known for representing individual attorneys and groups making lateral moves, helping them navigate complex partnership agreements, fiduciary obligations, and departure issues to protect their interests and minimize risk.

In addition to her lateral move work, Tina counsels firms on partnership disputes, mergers, succession planning, and dissolutions, drawing on her deep experience to guide clients through sensitive and often high-pressure situations. Tina, welcome to The Lawyer's Edge.

Tina Solis: Elise, thanks so much for having me.

Elise Holtzman: I am so excited to talk to you today, not only because you and I have had so much fun chatting with each other. Every time I see your smile, I just start laughing because I know I'm going to have a good time. But because this lateral move thing is such a big issue these days, and I think it's really important for people to hear from someone who works with lawyers on a daily basis in connection with these issues.

So let's start out with just talking about the market generally. Maybe I'm imagining things, but it just seems like there's so much lateral moving around going on. What does the market look like these days for a lawyer who's considering a lateral move?

Tina Solis: So I think you're right, Elise. It's unprecedented in terms of the amount of lateral movement that we're seeing. This is continued during COVID, it really ramped up. I remember thinking when all of us were getting evacuation orders, "Oh, my goodness, my phone is going to stop ringing. I'm not going to do any part of my practice with regard to movements anymore." That first week, I had seven telephone calls. So, yeah, it was unbelievable.

It's just really continued from there on. So it's a very robust market. Now, I think law firms are being mindful of the candidates that they are adding to their rosters, but it is a very robust market. For individuals out there with good books of business or with special skill sets that they have that differentiate themselves, I think the market is doing very, very well and is keeping everyone very busy these days.

Elise Holtzman: Presumably, it takes some time to make these moves, does that change anything? I mean, do the law firms feel like they need the people right away? Do the lawyers feel like, "Oh, my God, I've got to get out of here"? Like, what's driving whether or not these things can happen in a timely fashion?

Tina Solis: So I think you're right. These do take time. If a client reaches out to me and hires me to consult on ethics issues, one of the first things we talk about is timing. Because there's not only timing issues with regard to the firm that they're currently at in terms of where they may be in their fiscal year and the economic impact to them about a move, but then there's also, depending on the reason they're moving, there can be a sense of urgency, especially with regard to the new firm that they're joining.

Oftentimes, the reason that the new firm wants them to join is they have a need there, right? They have a need for that person with the skill set, or they think there's a good synergy between the practice areas. So timing is one of the first things that we talk about. I will tell you, it runs the gamut. I mean, a process can take six months. A process can take three months. It really just depends on the candidate and the firms.

But the firms have also got a lot more sophisticated in their ways of doing this. There's a very what's called a lateral partner questionnaire that most candidates fill out. Each firm has its own form. But these are pretty extensive documents. They record a lot of different types of metrics and information about the attorney. Because these documents have gotten so sophisticated and comprehensive, it does allow the firm to move a little bit quicker because they have all this data to analyze right up front.

So moves can be done quickly. I mean, I've seen it happen in a matter of weeks as opposed to months. But timing is one of the biggest issues that when someone reaches out to me, it's one of the first things that we discuss because it can be so crucial.

Elise Holtzman: Have you seen law firms make decisions to hire on a lateral candidate, but then the timing just didn't work out, and it fell apart because maybe the lawyer wasn't moving fast enough, or the law firm couldn't move fast enough? Because the reason I'm so fascinated by this, I never really thought about it as a timing issue. It was like, okay, law firm A wants lawyer A, and so they make it happen, and maybe they come to terms, and maybe they don't. But I never really thought about the timing until you started mentioning it to me.

Tina Solis: So the timing is critical. What I mean by that is depending on what a partnership agreement or shareholder agreement says, it depends on how the firm's structured, but it's critical to know what your operative documents say as a lawyer who may be considering a move and the impact that that could have on you. Because many law firms, especially for equity partners or shareholders, those individuals are getting a significant amount of their compensation at year end.

So depending on where you are in the calendar year, if you're considering a move, you may be leaving a lot of money on the table if you leave before year end. So it's very important to analyze how your current firm is going to pay you if you leave, whether you will be getting those amounts or are you going to be forfeiting any amounts? If you're forfeiting any amounts, is there anything that you can do with regard to the new firm that you're joining that will allow you to be made whole based on the amount of money that you're leaving on the table?

So it's the economics to the attorney that's leaving. But then you also, and more importantly, because clients' interests always come first, you also have to think about client deadlines. I mean, if you're an M&A attorney, do you have a deal or deals that could be closing when you're thinking about leaving? If you're a litigator, do you have a substantive hearing coming up? These are all things that you have to factor in.

So one of the first things we discuss is, number one, because again, clients come first, and this is all about me making sure that you are not doing anything to breach your fiduciary obligations, but what are your client deadlines? Then secondly, what does this mean for you as the potential departing attorney financially?

So again, timing and sequencing of all this is crucial. It's something that doesn't come intuitively. Oftentimes, my clients aren't thinking about that until I raise it. I mean, I'll give you an anecdote. This has happened on more than one occasion. You know, I've had individuals who have left, already left. Then they find out from their current firm, well, you're not going to be paid X amount because you weren't here when those payments were made.

I feel bad because when those individuals call me, I know what those partnership agreements say, and there's nothing I can do to help them. Now, if they would have called me before they gave notice, my advice would have been, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold it. Stop. Let's think about this timing and let's think about when you're giving notice." So much like anything else, lawyers plan for their clients every day in a variety of contexts. If a lawyer is planning a move, he or she needs to really think about it and think, "Okay, do I know where my operative documents are? Have I looked at them? Have I retained ethics counsel to help me plan this?"

Because a lot of times people think, "Oh, I'll call my ethics counsel a week before I give notice." That's really not enough time. I always say to people, "You know, if you think you need me, call me a month or two out because the less rushed we are, the better it's going to be for you. In anything you do, the more you plan, the better it's going to turn out."

Elise Holtzman: I want to dive into those documents a little deeper and what people should be looking at. But I want to go backwards for a second to this idea that there's so much lateral moving going on. Obviously, you need to know why this person is moving, right? What are they trying to achieve? So in order for you to do your job well and help them navigate that move, you need to know why they're moving in the first place. Why do you see lawyers moving from one law firm to another? What are they typically looking to achieve or improve or maybe get away from?

Tina Solis: Sure. I think it's multiple reasons. A lot of what I hear is "I don't feel as though I'm being treated well." It's amazing to me. Law firms could, I think, just by saying thank you a little bit more, and we appreciate you, a little goes a long way for us attorneys. We don't need much, but a thank you and we appreciate you and you're doing a great job, those things really mean a lot. So I would say treatment is a big one that I hear.

Another issue is compensation: "I don't feel as though I am being fairly compensated given where the marketplace is." So that's always a big one. A third one, and this is in no particular order, of what I hear, but another big one that I hear oftentimes is "I need a better platform." What I mean by that is oftentimes an attorney, or if it's a group, the group has outgrown its law firm. By that, I mean they have multiple clients, and clients just don't need the lawyers for the practice that this group is practicing in. They need other practice areas. So clients may say to their attorneys, "Your current law firm's great. But boy, if you were at this law firm, we could give you additional types of work." Or oftentimes the attorney sees that and sees another firm that maybe has a deeper bench or has more to offer on that platform. So platform is a big one that I see.

Then another one that is emerging more recently, conflicts. As firms get bigger and they want to be everything to everybody, that's a hard thing to do. Conflicts are tricky. So I would say in the last few years, I'm seeing a lot more moves based on conflicts.

Elise Holtzman: What I think is particularly interesting about that last one, the conflicts issue, is that you can get rid of one conflict and potentially wind up with a new conflict. So I've got to imagine that that can get pretty thorny pretty quickly.

Tina Solis: It does get thorny very quickly. That's another reason why the lateral partner questionnaires are so important. You know, when a move is happening, it is critical that you are disclosing, and you are allowed to do this under the ethical rules for purposes of a move. You can disclose client names so conflicts can be run. But to your point, Elise, you have to be very careful. Because, yes, she may be leaving to avoid one conflict, but you never know. One of the firms that you're looking to join may present an equal conflict or a bigger one. So that is a very important part of this process as well, and one that should not be taken lightly.

There's a proper way to do it. There's a way to disclose in phases to make sure that client information is protected and that you're doing everything under the ethical rules and complying with fiduciary obligations. But conflicts is a very thorny issue in connection with transitioning from one firm to another.

Elise Holtzman: The issue of platform made me think of one example. I know an attorney who was a partner at a boutique firm that only did one kind of work. They are very, very well known for doing that work. It turned out that through her personal life, she had a tremendous number of contacts where at a bigger firm that was a multi-practice firm, she would be able to bring in a ton of work that she didn't have to do, right? Because it wasn't her area of practice. So she left this really fantastic boutique firm to go to what we would consider to be Biglaw because she was able to cross-sell so much more easily, or at all, having left that boutique.

Tina Solis: I see that a lot. Attorneys get tired. Well, I shouldn't say get tired of, but it hurts them when they have to refer out so much work. So I'll see that quite a bit where someone will leave a boutique or leave a smaller firm to go into Biglaw or a larger firm that has more service offerings because it's so much better for that person. Like your friend, I mean, think of all the additional revenue that she is generating and presumably getting at least partial credit for. I mean, it's great because she's delegating work out to other service areas. It's more work for the firm. It grows her book of business. It makes the clients happy. So it's a win, win, win for everybody. But I see that a fair amount.

Elise Holtzman: Let's go back to this issue of preparation. So now the lawyer has decided, you know what, this is not the right place for me for whatever reason. I don't feel like I'm being treated with respect. I'm not getting the compensation I want. I don't have the right platform here. I've got to go somewhere else. What documents should they be looking at? What due diligence should they be doing that you find that sometimes they're not paying attention to or aren't realizing can be important for them?

Tina Solis: So I think it's critical to have a couple of things in front of you when you're thinking about a move. Number one, do you know, do you even have a copy of your partnership agreement or your shareholder agreement? You would be shocked at how many people do not when I ask them that question. Or if they have it, they say, "I don't know. I've never read it. I just signed it. I did what I was told. I just signed it.

Elise Holtzman: By the way, just as an aside, this like totally amazes me. Because for heaven's sake, you're a lawyer. I guess they view it as like the adhesion contract that we learned about in law school. It's like, "Listen, I got to work for this firm. I guess I'm just going to sign it. Everybody else signed it. It must be fine."

It reminds me of many years ago. This is totally off the topic, but I think it's funny. Many years ago, I was giving a program to a group of fairly young lawyers. They were probably, call them, six-year associates. I just asked by a show of hands, how many of you have kids or are married? How many of you have kids? Then how many of you have estate planning documents? Like, how many of you have a will? And, Tina, when I tell you, there might have been, I think I had 40 people in the room, and maybe two people had a will. I was like, people, you went to law school, right? So it is amazing to me that they haven't read this partnership agreement. They don't even know where it is.

Tina Solis: Well, it's the old Cavaliers, children have no shoes.

Elise Holtzman: Exactly.

Tina Solis: Because we're so busy. By the way, I do have estate planning documents, Elise. But I include myself. We're so busy. We are the last people that we think about. It's all about the clients. I have to make sure the team is managed well and the clients are happy, and the deadlines are met. So when I say to my clients, "Where's your partnership agreement? Do you know what it says? Is it a 30-day notice period? Is it a 60-day? Is it a 90-day?" They oftentimes say to me, "Tina, I have no idea."

So first and foremost, know where that document is and familiarize yourself with it. The other thing that I think is important, oftentimes, depending on the firm, depending on the individual client, there may be a separate employment agreement that applies. You know, if you received a signing bonus when you joined that firm and you have a promissory note to pay that signing bonus back, and it has not yet worn off, then you need a copy of that promissory note. So anything that is pertinent to your existence at the law firm, you need to have those documents with you, and you need to know what they say because they can be very important in planning for a departure.

Again, as we touched on a few minutes ago, you know, what payments you're entitled to as someone who is departing the law firm. They also contain contractual obligations about things that you need to do to make sure that you are collaborating with your current firm, that you are doing everything you need to do before your release, such as getting your time in, reviewing your bills, making sure the bills get sent out. There are things that you have to do and obligations that you have to your current firm, and you want to be mindful of those.

So it's important to be a good leaver. I mean, you talk about all of the things you want to do throughout the process to get to a new firm, but it's equally important to make sure that you're being a good leaver.

Elise Holtzman: Maybe this is obvious, but let's talk about why that is. I mean, first of all, you have fiduciary obligations to your clients, presumably, and fiduciary obligations to the firm. Then also we've got reputational. I mean, this is as many lawyers as we have in this country. It's a small group of people, right?

Tina Solis: That's what nobody understands. Everyone thinks, "Oh, my goodness, there are so many lawyers everywhere." But even in major metropolitan areas, it is a very small community. The other thing is that for many people, I get a lot of clients who have been lifers at their firm. You know, 18 years, 25 years, they've never made a move before. So in some respects, it's their second family. I mean, where do you spend the vast majority of your time if you're not spending it with your family? You're at work and you worked with a lot of these people for many, many years. You know, your kids may be on the same dance team together or they may play baseball together, whatever. So you want to leave in a way that doesn't burn bridges. It doesn't make sense personally to do that.

Here's the other thing. I think it's important to leave amicably because there may be opportunities to refer work back and forth. There may be situations where, for certain clients, some of the work goes with you, but maybe some of the work for that client stays at the current firm, and you may have to collaborate. I've seen multiple instances where a client will say, "Listen, you're leaving, and that's fine. We want you to continue working on part of this litigation case, but we're three months away, six months away from a trial, and part of the team is going to stay at the current firm. We want you guys to work together. We're not going to pay anybody to get up to speed. You work great together as a team. Go try this case together."

So there are a whole host of reasons, both personally and professionally, and I'm a big believer in this. You leave the right way. I counsel very conservatively when it comes to that because you just never know who you may see again. I mean, you may work with someone at one firm. You may leave and go somewhere else. Who knows who else may join that firm or, I don't know, 15 years down the line, you wind up at a third firm together. You just never know. So I think it's important to do it the right way.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah. It's very much about character. You know, I'm pretty old-fashioned about that thing. You also want to be able to wake up and look yourself in the mirror in the morning and know that you're still you and that you've behaved in a way that speaks well of who you are as a person.

Tina Solis: I couldn't agree with you more.

Elise Holtzman: On the flip side, going to the law firm, the new law firm, and documentation and all of that sort of thing. So you're filling out this huge lateral questionnaire, the defending your life memo, which is what I call your comp memo at the end of the year. I call it the defending your life memo. So you fill out this huge thing. Are you asking for the same documents at the new firm? You know, what does the partnership agreement look like? What am I getting involved with here? Are there other things you should be considering?

Tina Solis: So typically, you're not going to see a partnership agreement for the new firm until you've made your decision and you've narrowed it down to one or two firms, or you've made your decision and you say, "I'm going to X firm." Then that's the time to take a look at the partnership agreement of the new firm.

Again, let's be very, very clear here. You're not going to be able to negotiate that agreement. So let's be clear. But again, as part of the planning process, it's always good to know what you're getting into. So you should see that. But that comes at the very end of the process. I think firms are usually pretty good about providing that to a candidate towards the end of the process. You know, sometimes in an abundance of caution, they will say sign an NDA, which I completely understand, makes all the sense in the world. A candidate should do that if he or she has not signed the offer letter yet. But that is part of the process at the very end.

Elise Holtzman: We've already talked about some of the things you need to look out for and how to avoid some mistakes. But I think you and I talked about this. People love stories. We know that humans, people will be out there peopling whether we like it or not. So I'm curious about the mistakes you've seen. What are some of the biggest mistakes you've observed in connection with a lateral move?

Tina Solis: So, besides the one I shared a few minutes ago about timing and not knowing what payments you're going to receive, and you leave 13 days too early, another big one that I see is, and I understand this, but clients will call me right before they're ready to give notice. They've already negotiated their deal with the new firm. They don't realize, "Oh my goodness, I'm going to leave this money on the table, but yet I didn't ask the new firm to make me whole."

So they will call and we talk about all the ethics issues, but then we get to the business side of it because anyone who thinks a lateral move is only about the ethics, and it is, and that's the most important part, but anyone who thinks it doesn't also involve understanding the way your current law firm works from a business perspective and the way the new law firm works from a business perspective doesn't understand what it means to make a lateral move.

You are moving your book of business. Sometimes there are groups going together. This is a significant transaction, and it needs to be treated as such. So another big mistake I see is, "Oh, my gosh, I didn't know I was leaving all this money on the table. I'm not going to be made whole by the new firm." So that's a big one that I see.

Another one that I will tell you a war story. This was one of the worst ones I ever had. I had someone call me. They had a court hearing coming up in a couple of days. I said, "What's the court hearing for?" "Well, I could be held in contempt." I said, "What?" "Well, I gave notice to my firm, very small firm, when my partner was out on vacation, and I took the client files with me." Do not do this. This is anecdote 101 of what not to do. I said, "You mean to tell me you gave notice to your partner when that person was not in the office and you did not get written client authorization to move the files? Okay, you've just violated your two biggest obligations to not only your clients, but to your partner."

Oh, my goodness. So lawyers think, "Well, I'm a lawyer. I know how to do this." Probably not. I mean, yes, we all had ethics training, but much like anything else, I don't do my own real estate closings. I'm not a real estate attorney, so I don't do that. If you are not someone that focuses on professional liability and ethics issues, get counsel before you do this because you can really, really misstep here.

Tina Solis: I had to work very hard. And, you know, as a litigator, you do what you need to do. I went into the judge and I fell on my sword because I had no other options. "Your Honor, I apologize. My client had no idea what he was doing. Those client files will go back. We will make sure that we get client authorization." I mean, it was a very, very difficult piece of litigation for me to handle because there are just some bells that cannot be unrung, and he had rung a couple of them.

So, again, don't act first and get advice later. Get the advice first before you do anything, because we are talking client files and client documentation. There are firm confidentiality issues here, confidential information. I mean, a transition is really, really fraught with ways that attorneys can make missteps unless they have the proper advice and guidance and are doing this very methodically. It was a very, very unfortunate situation.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah, that's a crazy story. I mean, and it seems to me this advice, I think, is important for everybody to hear, whether it's a lateral move or not. I mean, my husband and I are both lawyers. I don't know how much we know about everything in the world, but we're intelligent enough to know that we don't know anything about other practice areas. So any time that we've ever done anything, we've absolutely hired lawyers several times to do things that we needed. I think that's just a good reminder for everybody. Like, don't try what is the expression about? I don't remember which judge said this, or whoever it was about, a fool who acts as his own lawyer has a fool for a client, or something like that.

Tina Solis: Yes.

Elise Holtzman: That's a really unfortunate story.

Tina Solis: It is. I mean, we were able to minimize it, but I think only because, number one, he was smart enough to hire outside counsel. Then I just went in and basically said, "Judge, whatever you need us to do, we're going to do it because he misstepped here." But you never want to be in that position. Again, Elise, going back to your reputation, I mean, as an attorney, my reputation and credibility is of the utmost importance. You just don't want to be in that spot.

Elise Holtzman: There are so many considerations here, obviously, as you say, with lateral moves. In terms of avoiding making these mistakes as a lateral candidate, is it really just about making sure that you're getting solid legal counsel on this so that you're mapping out all of the situations in advance and knowing what could potentially be coming? Or is there something else people should be doing?

Tina Solis: No, I think it is having your documents in front of you, knowing what those documents say, working with someone who does ethics work and professional liability counseling on a regular basis, and just much like anything else, planning out a strategy for execution and then executing on it.

It's the work that we do as lawyers for our clients on a daily basis, just applying it to yourself when you are doing a transition from one firm to the next. Because I will tell you, the whole process has gotten far more sophisticated than it used to be. You know, I've been doing this for, oh my goodness, probably going on close to 25 years, this part of my practice. My practice has evolved because the process has evolved.

It used to be, oh, I worked opposite this attorney at a different firm, and I hear that they're looking for another litigator. So I call up Sally and say, "Hey, remember that case we had together? You've got a great firm. You know, I'd love to think about joining you." It was simpler back then. But now we've got lateral partner questionnaires. We've got all sorts of information, and what can be disclosed, what can't be disclosed, how can it be disclosed. It's just a far more complicated process than it was 15 years ago.

The issues haven't changed in terms of what you need to be mindful in terms of your fiduciary obligations to your firm and partners, and your clients. But like everything else, we evolve over time. So it's really about speaking to someone who does this on a daily basis and planning like anything else in life.

Elise Holtzman: How frequently do you see people who seem to be serial hoppers? Do you see people making multiple lateral moves? Because I do know a couple of people that, one of them I went to law school with, and another one that I have in mind, who over a 30 to 35-year career have made multiple moves with some pretty serious firms.

Tina Solis: Yes. So it's interesting that you say that. I think 20 years ago, there may have been a negative view when you use the term serial hopper, right? Because people stuck around at their firms forever. They retired. They got the gold watch or whatever or the plaque on the wall and big retirement party. Jill's been here with us for 50 years and John's been here, you know. But that's not the world we live in anymore.

So I guess for me, and part of this comes from I work with a lot of recruiters as well. A lot of recruiters will tell candidates, "If you've got a big book of business, you really should think about a move every five to seven years." They do. They say this. Now, that's their opinion. I'm a big believer on you do a move if it makes sense for you and your clients and your practice. I don't know that I would put any time limitations on it. But I think we live in a much more mobile profession than we used to. So you do see some individuals that will move a fair amount. There can be a wide variety of reasons for that. But I don't think it's uncommon in today's world to see people that have been at three or four different law firms.

The other thing that is interesting, too, is you may look at someone's resume and you may see two different firms on there. Well, you may see those two different firms because those firms merged together. So that wasn't a move in the sense that we're talking about today. That was due to a merger of the two firms. So I think people are moving more often, undoubtedly, in today's day and age. But I also think that when you're looking at, it's interesting, their CV or resume, you really have to drill down on that because it isn't a move or was it the result of a merger or something like that? You know, or a situation where one of those moves was because the entire department moved, right?

Elise Holtzman: Yeah, there's a story there.

Tina Solis: There's a story there. I mean, I've seen situations where firms have said, "Listen, our five-year strategy, we're really going to focus on these practice areas." If attorneys are not in those practice areas, well, they take that as a signal of, boy, maybe we should think about making a move. I've been involved in situations like that where they were happy at the firm. They liked who they were working with. They felt they were being treated well. But their particular practice area just was not part of the firm's long-term strategy. So, for longevity purposes, that's what triggered the move.

Elise Holtzman: That's an interesting point, right? Paying attention to what your firm's strategic plan looks like so that you know whether you're being focused on or whether you may become irrelevant or somewhat irrelevant to the firm at some point. It's something else to add to the list to be aware of.

Tina, as we wrap up our time here together today, I want to ask you a question that I ask all of my guests at the end of the show. There's a phenomenon called the curse of knowledge, where experts sometimes forget that what is so obvious and natural to them is not at all obvious to others. When it comes to successfully preparing for and navigating a successful lateral move, what's a principle or piece of advice that may seem obvious to you, but is important for people to hear?

Tina Solis: Boy, I think I sound like a broken record at this point based on everything we've talked about. Plan ahead, plan ahead, plan ahead. Can I say it again? Plan ahead. This is critical. This is your career we're talking about. Your reputation is so important.

Don't misstep because this can have personal ramifications for you in connection with your career. Do it the right way. It's an insurance policy. Reach out to someone who does this and get their guidance and counseling. Trust me, it's going to be the best thing you ever did. Because again, you may just be starting out. You may be at the end of your career, but this is your career, and I can't stress how important that is. So plan ahead. That's the takeaway, Elise.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah, I love it. I think we got it, but I think it was important for us to get it. So that's great. So Tina, thank you so much for being here today. Such a pleasure to talk to you. I'm going to thank our listeners for tuning in as well. If you've enjoyed today's show, please subscribe, rate, and review us at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. In the meantime, be bold, take action, and make things happen. We'll see you next time.