Pat Gillette | Just Ask! How Women Can Succeed as Rainmakers AND Law Firm Leaders

Elise Holtzman: Hi, everyone. It's Elise Holtzman here, a former practicing lawyer and the host of The Lawyer's Edge Podcast, where I sit down with successful attorneys, legal marketing specialists, business leaders, and authors to talk about how lawyers and law firms can grow and sustain healthy, profitable businesses.

Hi everyone. It's Elise Holtzman here. Welcome back to another episode of The Lawyer's Edge. Today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a nine-month business development program created by women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers and supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. Registration is now open for the 2025 Ignite cohort and early bird pricing is available. To learn more about Ignite, visit thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

My guest today, Patricia Gillette, is a lawyer with 40 years of practice experience and one of the country's leading experts and most sought-after speakers on gender diversity and equality. She speaks regularly at law firm retreats, conferences, ABA meetings, state-bar meetings, and industry events. Her work is focused on providing impactful and practical solutions to the systemic barriers that prevent women and people from diverse backgrounds from reaching their full potential in the workplace.

As a lawyer, Pat was rated as a top employment litigator and trial lawyer by Chambers and other organizations and was a leader and rainmaker in her firms. At the end of 2015, she resigned as a partner at Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe to pursue her passion for empowering women through keynote speaking and writing.

She was also invited to join JAMS to mediate employment cases and now has a successful mediation practice. In addition to publishing books, including her most recent, Rainmakers: Born or Bred, Pat has received awards too numerous to list, believe me, I tried, for her work to advance women in the profession, has sat on the boards of multiple nonprofits devoted to women's advancement and as the co-founder of the Opt-In Project, a nationwide initiative focused on changing the structure of law firms to increase the retention and advancement of women.

Her team at the 2016 Diversity Lab Hackathon created the Mansfield Rule, which has been adopted by more than 60 firms nationwide, requiring that 30% of all candidates for leadership positions be women or people of color. Pat, welcome to The Lawyer's Edge.

Patricia Gillette: Thank you so much. I'm really honored and privileged to be a part of this so thank you for inviting me.

Elise Holtzman: Absolutely. It's an honor for me to have you. I met you many years ago. Well, you didn't meet me. I met you when you were facilitating a business development and leadership retreat for the New Jersey Women Lawyers Association. I've had you in mind ever since so I'm really happy to have you today.

As I mentioned, you had a 40-year career as an attorney, as a practicing attorney, before shifting gears and pursuing this passion of yours to help achieve parity for women in the legal world. Since you shifted over to this line of work, what trends are you seeing in the legal industry?

Patricia Gillette: So I'm going to go back a little ways to 2006 when I founded the Opt-In Project, which was really taking some of the issues that were facing women in the profession at that time that were structural, in my opinion, and systemic, and not about work-life balance and making changes. From 2006 until 2015, I really had a passion for advising firms and organizations about the kinds of things that we need to do that would have impact, that weren't just actions, but would actually have impact on the numbers of women in leadership positions and in re-making positions in our firms and organizations across the country.

In 2015, when I had my last best, most wonderful case ever, and could never have anything like that again, and my team was pretty well settled, I decided that I would step out and really devote most of my time to spreading the word on some of these issues. What's been really interesting is, over the past six years, to watch the evolution. I'd say that we slowed down a little bit in 2015, 2016, and 2017 from what I hoped would happen in the legal industry.

But with the coming of the "woke-ness" that has gripped the country since Black Lives Matter and some of the other events that occurred, I've seen a real deeper interest, I would say, in organizations and surprisingly in law firms. I say surprisingly because law firms are so hesitant to do anything, the bucks tradition or that takes a risk or that is different from whatever law firms are doing, but what we're seeing is law firms have a renewed interest in making sure that they aren't standing in the way of women and diverse attorneys advancing in their organizations.

Now, I'm not a believer in miracles, so I don't think it's going to change overnight. But I do believe that there's a core commitment that I haven't seen before, and that's evidenced by what law firms are doing: hiring chief diversity officers, which was not necessarily uncommon before. But these chief diversity officers are now reporting to the chair of the firm instead of to the HR person in the firm.

That reporting level just tells you there's a different level of commitment that now the chair of the firm is going to be watching what's going on, being involved, hearing directly from the chief diversity officer what's happening. We're seeing firms take actions that actually advance opportunities for women and minorities in the workplace by looking at what the systemic challenges are, which are often in how work is assigned, who goes on pitches, how we advance people within the organization, that they're not just looking to put training programs in, which are helpful and important, but there has to be a follow-up to those training programs that looks at the systemic barriers as well. I think we're seeing the opportunity for change. I think we need to build on that momentum.

Elise Holtzman: Let’s go back for a second. You've mentioned systemic challenges a couple of times. I think it's important to just call out what those are. You started to mention a couple of them, but let's dive into that for a minute. What do you see as some of the systemic challenges that are a problem? As you say, most people are paying a lot closer attention. I think many people certainly say, "Well, I care about this. This is something that I am committed to. I would never discriminate against somebody," that kind of thing.

We know that there are unconscious biases that even people who are well-intentioned are occasionally doing things or often doing things that they don't even realize can be damaging and can stall the careers of other people. I think it's important for people to hear this because I think we want to make sure that people aren't just brushing it under the rug, “Oh, I would never do that sort of thing,” or, “Oh, we have programs in place.”

If you could share what you think are some of the top things that are involved in systems in law firms and in other organizations that get in people's way, I think that would be helpful.

Patricia Gillette: Yeah. I’m going to focus on two areas that I think are really critical. The first is close to my heart, which is business development, because I was a big rainmaker for the 40 years that I practiced law, and I'm really not that special so my book that you mentioned is about the characteristics that make rainmakers successful.

The reason I mentioned that is what we found in the study that we did of 300 partners across the country using psychological testing and interviewing to determine what differentiates rainmakers from other people is that there's no gender base for the way people behave if they're rainmakers. There's no gender difference in the personal characteristics that makes someone successful as a rainmaker.

What that tells me is that there's something else that's keeping women back. It's not an inherent ability that they lack. It's something else. It's systemic. What is that systemic issue, in my opinion, that's holding women back? Many. Because what we know is if you have the ability to develop business, but you're precluded from the opportunity to develop business by systems that are in place, then that affects your ability to be a rainmaker.

Things like how assignments are given out, who gets speaking roles, who gets to meet the client, who gets to talk with the client, who goes on pitches, who has lead roles in trials or in deals. It's that kind of thing that law firms have traditionally not monitored and not regulated in any way that needs to be looked at to say, “Wait a minute, are we picking the same person every time to be lead counsel in a trial or lead in a deal? Are we picking the same person or the same type of person every time to be the person who speaks in front of a court or in front of a client who goes out on pitches?”

What I've been encouraging law firms and corporations that come to me for advice is to say, “Step back, do the training because it's important to emphasize what it takes to be a rainmaker, but then step back and look at who's getting the opportunities to be in front of clients.” When you do that, what you find is that most firms—because they don't monitor and it's a tap on the shoulder—are picking people who look like them—and those happen to be white men—to do these kinds of things that give you the gravitas and the experience to be successful.

That's one area where I think firms can really do a lot systemically to change the way to think about it. The other is the Mansfield Rule. When our team came up with this, we just thought it was the best thing ever, and it's turned out to be. That's because what it does is it looks at the other systemic issue that plagues law firms. That is, how do you choose the people who will be in the pipeline for leadership and ultimately elected to leadership or chosen for leadership positions depending on how the firm chooses its leaders?

Traditionally, in many firms, that's been either by a vote or a nominating committee or by a tap on the shoulder. What the Mansfield Rule does is say, “Let's look at that a little bit differently. Let's create a pool of candidates and let's make sure that 30% of those candidates are women or diverse attorneys. Then not say you have to select them, but at least put them in the pipeline so that they have the opportunity to be visible.”

Increasing the visibility of women and minorities for leadership positions prevents firms from what they've done in the past, which is they choose one woman—and I was often that woman—who is everything. They're on the executive committee, they're on the leadership team, they're on the high compensation list. There's more than one woman who's qualified to do those things. There's more than one diverse person who should be chosen for those kinds of positions.

What the Mansfield Rule does is create a structure that law firms can use to make a systemic change. That is to increase the pipeline for women and diverse attorneys into leadership positions, practice group leaders, executive committee, comp committee, partnership promotion. It looks at those and really makes a difference.

The Diversity Lab has done a wonderful job of really expanding that rule so that it's out to all these corporations and law firms and people are bragging about the fact that they're Mansfield certified. So I couldn't be prouder of my team and the rule that we came up with because I do think it has a great impact on the systemic issue that was keeping women and minorities out of leadership positions in their firms.

Elise Holtzman: It's a huge accomplishment for the Diversity Lab team, the people that you were working with. It's also interesting because I think it gives people a target.

Patricia Gillette: Exactly.

Elise Holtzman: Right. Because I think this stuff can be so complicated, obviously. On the one hand, it's such a simple concept. On the other hand, the implementation of it can be so complicated for firms, as I said, even for people who really have their hearts in the right place, and for people who believe that there's a business case for it, because it's not just about having your heart in the right place, it's building the business case for it.

So giving them a target of 30% and perhaps that'll shift even bigger at some point, I think makes it easier for organizations and institutions that haven't made the kinds of changes that we would like to see to do that. So congratulations to you on that. I think it's exciting. We'll see where it goes.

You talked a little bit about why women lawyers have traditionally lagged behind men in rainmaking. Then also, of course, leadership, that every now and then, I'm always shocked when I speak to somebody who is the managing partner of a sizable firm who's a woman. Unfortunately and considering the fact that I live and breathe lawyers and law firms all day long, it shouldn't be a shock to me, but it is because it's so few and far between.

If you could talk a little bit about what women can do in terms of growing as business developers and growing as leaders, because sometimes it's a heavy lift, I definitely hear women saying, "Well, there's not enough time in the day. I can't do all of this stuff." I think you told me a story actually about somebody who you used to work with who said, “You can be a rainmaker, but you can't be a leader. You can't do both.” Do women have to choose between becoming rainmakers and becoming leaders in their firms?

Patricia Gillette: No, I mean, I think everything you do in your professional life is a choice. You do have to make some choices. You have to decide some priorities. But I think one of the things that's really held women back is that we have focused on something that's near and dear to your heart, near and dear to my heart, which is work-life balance.

I have two kids. I was a full-time lawyer and a litigator, and I powered firms my entire career, and I had to figure out how to balance those priorities. You have the same issue for your family. You have more kids than I do, so you definitely have more. But I think that we let ourselves get sidetracked on being so focused on work-life balance that we forgot that we need to also think about our careers.

That's been complicated by the fact that people tend to think of business development as being hard. It's actually not hard, especially for women. We're really good at building relationships. What the rainmaker study showed us is that the people who are successful as business developers are people who know how to build relationships. They know how to actively listen, they know how to be persuasive, they're innovative, they're creative, they're strategic. Those are traits that women have because we have to have them.

A business development call for me might be, “Hi, Elise, how are you doing? I know the kids just went back to school. You must be a little relieved to have them out of the house.” That's not about asking you for business, but it's about building the relationship. That's something we're good at. We're better at it than men actually.

So if you begin to demystify what it takes to be a business developer and say you don't have to play golf, for me, business development was cooking, I happen to be a pretty good cook, I'd say, and I love it so I can do a dinner party for 10 or 100, it doesn't really stress me out, that's how I develop business. Each person's going to figure out their own way that fits into their personal life and then thinking of business development as a part of your life that isn't separate from your business activities.

When I'm on the soccer field, when I'm on my kid's school's board of trustees, I'm not there because I want a business development opportunity, but I don't shy away from them either because who sits on the boards of private school boards of trustees? White guys who have big corporations. They have a lot of money. So if they ask a question, I have an age discrimination lawsuit, I'm going to be saying, “Hey, listen, give me a call. I'm happy to talk to you off the record.”

I'm not asking for business, but I'm making myself available and building a relationship. I think demystifying business development is critical. On the leadership side, I think primarily what's held women back is being risk averse, afraid to take on those bigger roles in organizations.

Our study didn't show that men and women had a different tolerance for risk, actually. But anecdotally, I would say we do because we let that P word get in the way, the perfect word. If we're not perfect and we're not absolutely qualified for something, we don't think of ourselves as being in the mix. Whereas men from the studies, we know can have 5 out of 10 qualifications, they apply for a job, women have 9 out of 10, they're like, “Oh, I don't have that 10th qualification, I can't do it.”

So I think it's been a risk tolerance issue that's kept women from leadership and the systemic issue that's kept them out. Then something that I think is really important, which is asking, saying, “I'm ready to take on a leadership role,” or letting it be known, “I want to be a partner in the firm,” or “I want to go on this pitch,” to give yourself visibility and to elevate yourself within the firm.

Elise Holtzman: Pat, you took the words out of my mouth. I started to laugh almost when you said the thing about perfectionism, because I do think that women, as you say, they might not really have a risk tolerance difference for men, but because we've been socialized a certain way. We've been socialized to do everything right and perfect and always be polite and be helpful and all of these kinds of things, that the idea for some women of standing up and saying, “I'm ready to take on leadership,” or “I should be the first chair on this matter” can be very, very terrifying.

I mean, there's all the, “Well, what if I'm not ready? What if I get something wrong? What if I make a mistake?” And to your point, in general, men don't worry as much about that. They see the opportunity and they go for it. If they make a mistake, they make a mistake, and they say, "Oh, well, that wasn't great," and they pick up and they keep going.

I also think you mentioned the first point about not pursuing business development really because it's not part of their job description. It's like, "I'm a lawyer, and maybe I'm a mom, or maybe I'm taking care of older parents," or whatever it is. I talk frequently to people about the idea of making business development part of your job description.

When you do that, because you are somebody who is responsible and reliable, you will focus your attention on it. When you realize that success in the law means not just churning out really great legal work, but being able to bring business into the firm, I think it does make it easier for people, as you said before, to choose, to make those things a priority because it isn't just icing on the cake, it isn't just something that's nice to have, it's something that's absolutely essential for you to be able to move forward.

Patricia Gillette: Yeah, let me just add two quick points to that because I really agree with everything you just said. One is you have to remember that you define normal for your kids. Part of it is we have an idealistic view of what we should look like as parents and particularly what we should look like as moms that's imposed on us by the people around us. But you know what, you define normal.

Your kids don't know what other people are doing necessarily. I always say I love to cook as I mentioned. I made dinner every night for my kids. We talked around the dinner table, but we ate at 7:00 or 7:30. When they went to college, they were like, “Mom, there's people eating at five o'clock.” I'm like, “Yeah, well, they're crazy.” So you have to give up some of those traditional norms that other people impose on you and figure out what your normal is going to be. That's really, really critical to being successful.

Elise Holtzman: Going back to this idea of women at home raising children, and look, we know that not all women choose to have children and raise children, but it continues to be an issue for those who do. You raised a family and you somehow managed to become a rainmaker and a leader both inside and outside of your firm.

I have a couple of questions about that. One is, with respect to your experience specifically, were there certain things that you told yourself? Were there certain ways in which you sought out help? Because you have been in the legal profession even a little bit longer than I have, which is a long time. I remember not feeling that I had anybody to talk to.

I didn't have lawyers in my family. There was no such thing as a coach. I didn't have mentors. Sponsorship hadn't been discussed yet. Even though we know it existed, it was really the realm of, as you say, white men who looked at each other and said, "Oh, you're like me and I'm going to help you along." So what kept you in the profession? Is it personality? Was it a conscious decision you made? Was it sheer force of will and character? What enabled you, do you think, to do something different than a lot of women did in the profession at the time?

Patricia Gillette: Yeah. That's a really good question. I've actually given a lot of thought to it as I try to mentor young women. Part of it was the profession was different when I was growing up. We didn't have some of the barriers that keep us back now, including the billable hour, including the pressure to work, work, work all the time. I attribute some of my success to that, that it was just a more collegial, more inviting profession at the time that I was growing up in the profession.

I had a partner who was completely supportive. My husband's a lawyer, a very highly skilled appellate lawyer and we formed a partnership that really was important to our success because of his job, because he worked for Kamala Harris, by the way, at the end, his job allowed him to come home earlier than I did so he could take care of some of that part of our life and I could take care of the part that went once I got home, which included cooking dinner and getting the kids ready for bed and all that stuff.

We divided responsibilities, not completely evenly. But having a partner who's supportive is really, really, really important. We've been married for 47 years, so we know each other pretty well. We were able to work that out in a way that was beneficial. But a lot of it was just me. I'm one of those people who believes you can do whatever you want to.

My parents instilled that in us as young children, and I believed it. So I never hesitated to look for something more. I was never satisfied with where I was. I always wanted to do something more. I pretty much know how to prioritize and compartmentalize, both of which I think are critical to success for any lawyer, but particularly women.

When I was home with my kids, I was home with my kids. I wasn't waiting to talk to a client. I wasn't thinking about work, although maybe in the back of my mind I was, until they went to bed. Then when they went to bed, then I started thinking about work again. I was able to say, “This is my priority now and this is my priority then.”

I can compartmentalize so I can say, “As far as I'm concerned, weekends were sacrosanct during the day with the kids.” We had errands to run on Saturdays. We had fun activities to do on Sunday. I tried, tried, tried really hard and never to let that be interfered with unless I was in trial and then all bets were off. I think it was a combination of those kinds of things.

My mentors were men, like you, there weren't women around that were role models. If there were women around, they were queen bees who were like, “Ha, I made tough luck for you.” My mentors were men and I have several men in my life who helped me be successful. One, Vic Schachter, who was the best marketing person I've ever met, taught me from an early age how to market, how to build relationships, how to show clients that you care about them, that you're more interested in their success than yours.

I had people in my firms, Barry Levin being one of them, who identified me as someone who should be a leader in the firm and move me up through the ranks. There were people like that who I cultivated relationships with, but who gave back? I didn't feel like I had to have a woman mentor or a woman sponsor. I understand why people may want that, but that's not always the best choice. It's the person who's going to make you feel like you're important to them and for whom you can give something back as well.

Those are the things I think, partnership, a willingness to say “I can do anything,” prioritizing compartmentalizing, and then finding people who can help you be successful regardless of gender, race, ethnicity.

Elise Holtzman: Those are great examples and great takeaways. One of the things that comes up for me as you're describing your ability to compartmentalize and to set up boundaries at certain times of day and certain days of the week is that in some ways, I think it's gotten harder on that score for everyone, not just for women, because of the email and it's not like just going to your computer. You're walking around with your email in your hand all the time and people are texting you and things are ringing and pinging and dinging and people at many firms, especially the larger firms, think that they should have access to you all the time.

I do think that nevertheless, it's still incredibly good advice to try to erect boundaries around some of the aspects of your life that are truly genuinely important to you and that you deserve to have.

Patricia Gillette: Yeah. No, I really agree with you. That's a really good point about the emails and the texts and all that stuff. But I'll just tell you a quick story. When my kids were little, I said I wanted to be home to cook dinner so I would leave at six o'clock. I'd be home by 6:45. We’d have dinner on the table by 7:30. Nobody called me after six o'clock because they knew I was gone. They might call me at nine, but they wouldn't call me at six. Then when my kids were out of the house, all of a sudden it was only my husband I had to worry about so I would stay at work until 7:00 or 7:30 and we would eat later.

People understood then that my priorities had now changed. I was available. So, I know it's harder and I don't mean to discount that in any way. But I do think you can say, “I can't talk to you right now. Can I get back to you in an hour?” to the extent that you need to look at your phone and respond. Most people will understand that. If they don't, maybe you don't want to work at a firm that doesn't recognize that people have other priorities in their life. Maybe you don't want to work for a client who says, “You have to respond to me at one in the morning.”

Elise Holtzman: Well, I think that it involves a willingness to set the boundary. I think many people say, "Well, I can't, you don't understand. What will they think? They won't think this of me or that of me" when in fact, they haven't actually tried or they haven't been willing to say. So put your stake in the ground for what's really important for you and see what happens.

It's hard to blame the circumstance if you're not actually giving it a shot. So, yes, I understand, but I understand the idea that, "Oh my gosh, this isn't typical and what will people think?" But as you say, it's about choices. You have to be the one that makes the decision about, maybe for somebody it's 6:30 to 8:30, maybe for somebody else it's 7:00 to 9:00. If you don't tell people, they won't know.

Patricia Gillette: Exactly, exactly.

Elise Holtzman: I think it's a little bit of soul-searching and a little bit of figuring out what works for you. By the way, as your story so ably illustrates, it doesn't mean it's forever. There are different stages of your life where different things are okay and different things aren't okay. That's great, encouraging people to set those boundaries and make the choice about what's important to them.

Pat, as we start to wind down here today, I'm going to ask you the same question that I ask all of my guests at the end of our time together. There's a phenomenon called the curse of knowledge where experts sometimes forget that what is so obvious and natural to them is not at all obvious to other people. When it comes to women's advancement in the law, what's that one principle or piece of advice that may seem obvious to you, but is important for those in the legal profession to hear over and over again?

Patricia Gillette: So this is a really easy answer for me, because this is something that comes naturally to me and has really defined my career. That is just ask. Just ask. I know people say that all the time, but I am really amazed and dumbfounded by the number of people who aren't willing to just ask, ask for time off, ask to have someone call you later, ask to be on a project, ask to be in leadership, ask to go on a pitch, to really think about what you want, and then go for it.

So many people—and this is particularly a problem for women because we're not used to being given permission to ask, to really force yourself to do this and maybe you start off on little asks, but asking for opportunities, asking to meet with people, asking to be in leadership or on pitches is a really critical part of success for anybody, women in particular.

Elise Holtzman: I love it, Pat. Thank you so much. Such great advice and really important for people, especially women and people of color to hear. Thank you so much for being here with me today. This has really been a pleasure and an honor for me. I know that my listeners are going to get great value out of it. What's the best way for people to connect with you if they want to learn more?

Patricia Gillette: Yeah, so I'd say the best way is probably through email. My email is pkgillette@gmail.com, like the razor blade or the stadium if you're from the Northeast. I have a website which is patriciagillette.com, you can contact me there, but really feel free to email me and I'm happy to talk to anyone who wants to just shoot the breeze about some of these issues. Please feel free to do that.

Elise, thank you so much for having me be part of this and for the work that you're doing, it's really important for women to hear from women like you some tips on how to be successful and how to increase their career opportunities so thank you for doing that hard work.

Elise Holtzman: That's been a real pleasure, Pat. Thanks again for being here. Thank you so much to our listeners for tuning in. If you've enjoyed today's show, please subscribe, rate, and review us at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. In the meantime, be bold, take action, make things happen, and just ask.

Thank you for tuning in. If you've enjoyed today's show, please subscribe, rate, and review us at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. In the meantime, be bold, take action, and make things happen. We'll see you next time.