Brett Amron & Jeffrey Bast | Building a Law Firm Partnership That Lasts

Elise Holtzman: Hi, everyone. It's Elise Holtzman here, a former practicing lawyer and the host of The Lawyer's Edge Podcast. Welcome back for another episode.

Some lawyers spend their careers reacting to what's in front of them. Others build something entirely their own and by design. Today's guests did just that. After cutting their teeth in Biglaw and public service, they left to build a boutique litigation and insolvency firm from the ground up.

Along the way, they've developed a national reputation for their strategic thinking, business acumen, and commitment to doing things differently. In this conversation, we talk about leadership, firm culture, strategic growth, and what it takes to stay resilient in a fast-changing legal market.

Before we dive in, today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a nine-month business development program created by women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers and supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. To learn more about Ignite, visit thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

I am delighted to welcome my guests today, Jeffrey Bast and Brett Amron, founding partners of Bast Amron LLP, a nationally recognized boutique law firm based in Miami, Florida. The firm focuses on commercial litigation, insolvency, bankruptcy, and related business disputes, and is known for representing debtors, creditors, fiduciaries, and trustees in complex matters across the country.

Jeff Bast brings more than 30 years of experience in restructuring and commercial litigation. He advises business clients through reorganizations, bankruptcy-related litigation, and out-of-court workouts, with a strong emphasis on avoiding bankruptcy when possible. Before founding the firm, Jeff completed two federal bankruptcy clerkships and was an equity partner at two international law firms.

Brett Amron is a seasoned litigator and a leader in director and officer liability litigation. He's known for pioneering the use of contingency fees in insolvency cases and has secured tens of millions of dollars in recoveries for creditors. Brett began his career as a prosecutor and has been widely recognized by Chambers USA, Best Lawyers in America, and Florida Super Lawyers.

Jeff and Brett are also the co-hosts of The Practice Podcast, where they've interviewed more than 180 leaders across law and business. Jeff and Brett, welcome to The Lawyer's Edge.

Jeffrey Bast: Thank you, Elise. We're so happy to be here.

Brett Amron: Thanks for having us.

Elise Holtzman: I'm happy to be with you too. Absolutely. So I had the pleasure of being on your podcast recently. Yeah, so I'm excited to talk to you now.

We talked a little bit about what I was doing, and I'm very excited now to be talking about what's much more interesting to me, what the two of you have been doing. So you've built Bast Amron into a respected boutique with national reach. What were some of the founding decisions or the values that shaped your identity?

Did you think about those things at the beginning, or did you just dive in and carve some of that stuff out later? What did that look like?

Brett Amron: I think we dove in, and I think we were drinking from a fire hose. I started my firm and Jeff started his own separately in 2008, then we came together in 2009. Because of the times and the work we were doing, we were essentially drinking from a fire hose.

A couple of things that we focused on that were super important to us, and that have stayed with us and guided us for the 16 years of the firm, number one, between Jeff and I, is trust. Without that, we wouldn't be here. We've seen the other side of failed partnerships. We've litigated, we've represented clients in that regard, and it's usually a lack of trust that diminishes things.

We always had that and we always know that we always have each other's back, and the firm as well, which is super important. The other is respect, respect for the people who come in and work for us, making sure everyone is treated the way we would want to be treated and we know they want to be treated. Then finally, it's a certain level of excellence that we require, which is differentiating in terms of the market.

Our pitch is always, "There's thousands of lawyers out there, but how do you differentiate yourself from all of the lawyers out there? How do we as a firm differentiate ourselves as a firm?" It's not just necessarily a niche practice, it's the level of practice, it's the level of attention to detail, it's caring, it's communication, and all that stuff.

So to me, those are some of the principles that we've stuck to. I think we each built separately, and when we came together, we brought them to the firm and have continued moving forward.

Jeffrey Bast: I agree with everything Brett said, of course. That's why we have a good partnership. I agree with everything he says.

Brett Amron: See, that's smart.

Jeffrey Bast: That's why we're successful. That's it. Right. But like he said, we each started our own practice in the beginning of 2008. As insolvency lawyers, you can imagine the timing, there was a lot going on in 2008. So we were immediately busy. Then we formed our firm together in 2009, so we were literally building the plane while we were in the air.

I think everything that Brett said is accurate, but we never really had any time to think about that. We just did it. It was organic. Most importantly, it's authentic. So we established core values of communication, commitment, creativity, and what we call the care factor.

The care factor for us is that we genuinely care about each other, about our clients, about our cases, about the work we do. When we accept someone's case, we are dedicated to the case almost to a fault from that point on. We basically take our clients' problems on and they become our own. We're authentic about it and genuine about it.

We care about each other like family. Most firms say, "Oh, we're a family. We treat each other like family," but we really are. This really is our family. We spend more time with them than we do with our biological families, so we genuinely care about each other. We genuinely care about the outcomes and we genuinely care about our clients. I think it shows because it's authentic.

Elise Holtzman: You mentioned trust. I think trust for some people is easy. It's easy to trust somebody, you meet them and you think, "Unless they show me that I shouldn't trust them, I'm going to trust them." Other people come from a place of, "Unless you demonstrate to me that I can trust you, I'm not going to trust you just yet."

I've worked in coaching. I once had the opportunity to work with two partners in a law firm. The results of the coaching were okay, but the results of the law firm wound up being disastrous. Part of it was they just had such different philosophies on the value that the other person brought to the partnership. It was like, "Unless you're billing this many hours, you're not of value to this partnership."

So they wound up splitting up. There was actually litigation involved. It was really a hot mess. You mentioned seeing other law firms and other partnerships that run into those sorts of things. Even with all of that trust, even with the care factor, there are certainly things that are going to come up where you're not necessarily going to agree on something.

How have you handled that sort of thing? Did you make a decision at the outset, "Here's how we're going to handle those sorts of things"? Or have you been able to work through them just because you do have that care for one another? What has that looked like for you when there have been controversies or areas of disagreement that perhaps are fairly significant?

Jeffrey Bast: Yeah. Well, I would say, first of all, I agree with what you said about trust. There's that saying—I don't remember who said this—but "The best way to know if you could trust someone is to trust them." For Brett and I, we were not longtime friends who said, "Let's form a firm together."

People always, when they hear that we each opened our own firm around the same time, assume that it was a calculated thing. We didn't really even know each other. In fact, when Brett announced his firm, I sent him a congratulation note and said, "Let's have lunch."

I think that's probably the first time we ever really spoke to each other in person. So we got to know each other organically when neither of us had an agenda. I was working on my firm, he was working on his firm. We were just going through the same experience at the same time and bouncing ideas off each other.

Then we started co-counsel cases together. Then he covered some hearings for me and I covered some for him. So it was organic. But during that period, I think we both evaluated the other, maybe subconsciously. It didn’t even occur to me that, "Oh, this is going to be my future partner." I just liked him, and I felt that we were going through the same struggle at the same time.

I think you get to know someone. What I learned about Brett was, one, we had very similar work ethic and a very similar moral compass. To me, those two are the drivers. So when we formed our partnership, it was a trusting partnership. It was, "We're going to split everything down the line." We're not going to measure hours.

One year you might bill more, one year I may generate more business, whatever it is, it's all going to work out in the end. As long as we both have the interests of the firm in mind, we'll be fine. In fact, we didn’t even write what we wrote, we didn't read and sign a partnership agreement for probably a year or two after we formed the firm. I don’t think we've even looked at it since that time we wrote it.

The important thing is I know in my heart and my soul that when we're making decisions, Brett always has the interest of the firm in mind. I'm the same way. I'm never going to make a decision that serves Jeff over the firm. It is about the two of us, but it's also about the 24 other people out here and their families that rely upon this place.

We are guided by principles of morality, and I trust that. I trust who Brett is. If you get to know a person, I think you know who they are, and for him to deceive me would require him to deviate from who he is.

Brett Amron: Yeah, and I feel the same way about Jeff. I think this is unique in the world, in partnerships, and in finding that. I think both of us have found two partners in our lives, each of us is married, so we found wives that we have the same moral compass and trust with, and now we found each other as business partners.

I think that's pretty unique. There is certainly the moral compass, the level of intellect, the level of practice, and the ability that we both have and bring to the table. We both trust each other. I agree with everything Jeff said as well.

In terms of any disputes, I really can't remember any that got to a significant heated point. Why? Because we communicate. I think we've evolved over time. When we first got into it, I'm sure there was this "trust, but verify." We were feeling each other out for the first year.

But we've been together so long, and each one of us has grown. We've evolved personally, we've evolved together, and the firm has evolved. We keep open lines of communication. Jeff and I meet once a week, just about every week. Sometimes we have to move the meetings and sometimes we don’t, but we make sure we have an agenda.

We talk about things. I know that if Jeff raises an issue with me that I may not necessarily agree with, I know why he's raising it because he believes something just slightly different, not that he has an agenda that runs counter to my agenda. We come at it sometimes from different perspectives, we have communication, we talk about it, and we come to a consensus.

A lot of times we get to the same spot, we just go about the analysis a little bit differently. Again, it's stepping back and saying, "Well, I'm not going to necessarily think about this particular issue." I know that when Jeff raises something and it is important to him, whether I at that moment agree or not, I know that he's doing it because he thinks it's in the best interest of the firm, everyone that works at the firm, and each one of us. It's not just about him and his agenda. I think that goes a long way.

The communication is key, and we have different levels of communication. The weekly meeting is one, but then opening up and being open to having those conversations.

Jeffrey Bast: Yeah, if I can just add that we are intentional about communication. We have a meeting every week. Oftentimes, we have an agenda, but there's really nothing. We just spoke a few days ago, and there's really nothing new to talk about. We still have that meeting.

We borrowed this from Entrepreneurs' Organization, we start every meeting off with clearing the air just to make sure neither of us is coming into the meeting carrying something that might prevent us from communicating freely, openly. So we clear: "I'm clear with you, I'm clear with myself, I'm clear with the firm, and I'm in." That little exercise, 99.9% of the time, is just a routine. But if somebody has something, if there's something bothering you, now's your opportunity to get it out. I think that really helps us, being intentional about our communication.

Brett Amron: Just to add one more thing to that, which is I think that given how long we've been together, even if one of us clears in that opening round or we're walking around and it looks like we're holding something, the other feels comfortable walking in and saying, "Is everything okay? Because I feel like there's something that we need to talk about." Again, it's just that trust and that moral compass, I think, that brings that out.

Elise Holtzman: Some of the things you've mentioned are so interesting to me because they demonstrate intentionality, and also not just, you have been in a relationship for a long time—you've been in a relationship for 16-plus years now. Relationships, people can get very complacent with one another. We know this from personal relationships as well as business relationships.

You can get complacent with one another. You could let the weekly meetings fall by the wayside. You could not check in with one another and just get in there and start with the agenda, and, "This is what I think we need to do," and that sort of thing. I also like that you mentioned the Entrepreneurs' Organization because it starts getting me thinking about some of the things I wanted to ask you about.

For those who aren't listening, the Entrepreneurs' Organization is what it sounds like: a group of people who are entrepreneurs, not just in law but in various industries. They have all kinds of tools and philosophies that people can use to help grow and differentiate their businesses.

So I wanted to ask you a little bit about growth and differentiation. We talked about intentionality, so it sounds like if you were or are in the Entrepreneurs' Organization, you decided that you wanted to learn more about how to run a business. So as you've grown, what are some of the things that you've done to help you do that, to help you grow in a thoughtful, intentional way that was not just throwing something at the wall and seeing if it stuck?

Brett Amron: One thing that comes to mind is being open to conversations. Over the years, we've met with people. People have reached out to us, we've reached out to people, and communicated with them, whether or not it was something we were looking at or thinking about. If somebody approached us and said, "I'm looking to leave my firm or join a firm," or whatever it is, we're always willing to have a conversation.

We've had numerous conversations with law firms over the years that were interested in acquiring us. Not that we had any interest in that, but we were just open to the conversation. I think that is more of an entrepreneurial mindset because you never know what comes out of those conversations. We hired our first office manager off of a—we certainly weren't looking for it. We were a much smaller firm than we are today. Somebody sent us a resume of this woman who was extremely qualified. She had a lot of experience at big firms. She was looking to downsize a little bit and change up.

We weren't looking for that. We were looking, I think, for another paralegal or some other staff person. We looked at her resume, we brought her in, and Jeff and I looked at each other. We factored in how much time she was going to save us versus how much we were going to pay her, and we hired her.

That to me was such a step up because it allowed us to mature both as business owners and in running the firm, allowing her to show us how to run a law firm, how to grow, and everything.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah. She actually knew a couple more things than you did, probably.

Brett Amron: She did. I think both of us, our egos are checked. Of course, we have egos, but our egos are checked in that we listen to people we hire to tell us things. We're not so egotistical that we say, “No, no, no, no, it's our way. That's the only way.”

Everybody in a meeting can speak and feels free to speak and offer their opinions and their views. Listen, we reserve the right to reject and ignore it for that time, but a lot of times I don't care if you're office services, a paralegal, or a partner in our firm, if you have something to say, we're going to listen to you. Because you know what? Sometimes you may have a different idea, a better idea than we're thinking of at the firm. That's how it's evolved. The culture itself that we've been able to develop has evolved over time.

Elise Holtzman: I just want to highlight that for a minute, because so many lawyers—and I say this with love, we're all lawyers. We spend a lot of time with lawyers. I certainly spend all my time with lawyers—we do know that there is this ego in the legal profession. We're used to being the smartest person in the room or one of them. We're used to feeling like, “If I want something done right, I have to do it myself.” That often, it's not about ego, and it's not about slamming someone for having that ego. For me, it's about having all of us recognize that we are really good at certain things, but there are people out there who are so much better than we are. They're highly educated, they're highly experienced, they've got a perspective that we don't.

Maybe they have a different personality type where they're a little bit less risk-averse and a little bit more open-minded. I'm highlighting this because I think that when it comes to growing at all, but certainly growing a firm, taking that attitude and having that mindset is something that I encourage people to take away from what you, Brett and Jeff, are talking about.

Jeffrey Bast: Yeah, no, I agree. I think your question about EO—Brett and I have both been in EO for now 12 plus years. I think it was important to both of us that we both be in it because it teaches you a new way of thinking and communicating.

If one of you is in it and the other is not, it's like we're not using the same language. But it taught us to recognize that we're running a business. Lawyers think that law firms are different, that they fall outside every other category, and that it's not a business.

It's a firm and we have different language and skill sets and can't market the same way. But it's a business, that's the reality. We learned that we needed to focus more on working on the business and not as much in the business.

We tend to go back and forth on that. There are times when we're able to work on the business, and then when you get busy, you start working in the business. In the traditional law firm model, the least busy lawyer is the one in charge of management, and that doesn't mean they're the most qualified.

Just having that mindset has taught us to understand that we are running a business and we're not always going to get it right. To Brett's point about communicating with our people, I think they always know—and same thing with us as partners—we always know that we're going at things with the right intention.

We tell our people, “Look, we may not get it right all the time, but you should know that we're trying. If we got it wrong and you tell us, we will take a look and evaluate whether we did something wrong and we need to redo it, or we did it wrong but that's what we wanted to do anyways, so we're sticking with it.” We're open to that feedback and everyone knows that.

We don't profess to know everything. Like you said, if you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably getting bad advice. So we surround ourselves with really smart people with diverse backgrounds, and we want diversity of opinions, diversity of experience, and just diversity in general. We think we all benefit from it.

Elise Holtzman: You mentioned that various opportunities have come up over the years. You've taken a lot of meetings with people who might have had something interesting to say, might have had an opportunity for you, might have thought you had an opportunity for them.

What are some of the things that you've decided are the core drivers that help you make decisions? Things come along and we talk about bright, shiny objects. “Ooh, this looks like a good opportunity." How do you evaluate that? Is there some core there that keeps you focused, or are you evaluating things as they come up to see whether it might be a good direction to go in?

Jeffrey Bast: We've taken a lot of those meetings. I don't think we've taken any second meetings. We're always open to having a conversation, and I think that's always a healthy way to approach things.

Why that is, well, generally as lawyers, I think we're risk-averse, especially as insolvency lawyers. Our focus is failure, so you bring me an opportunity and I will show you 30 things that could go wrong with it.

I think we tend to be very cautious, but I don't think that's a bad thing. We are very protective of this thing that we've built and our people. We take risks, but we take calculated risks, and we're not willing to subject, it might be a risk that Brett and I could accept but might not be acceptable to our people.

So we look at everything through the lens of every employee, who has a wife, a husband, kids, a grandmother they're caring for, whatever it is. How are our decisions going to affect them? It's served us well.

Elise Holtzman: You said you're protective of what you've built. When you say what you've built, what is that to you? What have you built? What's the culture there? What does the talent look like? What is it that you are so passionate about protecting?

Brett Amron: I think we're passionate about our people and the culture that we have of respect, mutual respect across the board. We work hard, but we also enjoy sometimes being with each other. Not all the time, everyone wants to go home with their families and friends, and we respect that.

Jeff alluded to it, I alluded to it a little bit, and it's one of our core values, it's caring. It's multi-level, we care about each other, the firm, our clients, and the community. To us, if you care, everything else is going to fall into place.

If you care about each other, you're going to treat each other with respect. That means if I'm not that busy and I see that someone else is busy, I'm going to go in and offer to help them. The same thing with any other person in this firm.

I'm going to make sure that people are taken care of with respect to any benefits. We're going to make sure they have the technology they need. We're going to hear people out if they have any particular issues, and things like that.

As an example, we have some really long-time employees who have been with us since day one or shortly thereafter. They continue, which is very hard in this type of business, but in this current environment where you have a lot of big businesses, a lot of big firms that are out there just looking and can throw a lot of resources at people that we just don't have.

But those people have stayed, and that's a testament to what we've built. More importantly, they have grown together and spend a lot of time with each other outside of the firm. That is just heartwarming.

We have people here who came single, not married, with no kids, they own a home, they rented, and now they're married, have children, homes, and all that.

We've watched everyone grow together and they've watched our families grow too. So everybody knows everybody, everybody knows the family and all of that. I think they know if you ask them that whatever decisions we make, and I think Jeff alluded to this before, we are always making decisions that are in their best interest, not just our best interests.

We're not just looking out for Jeff and Brett, we're looking out for everybody. I think they know that.

Jeffrey Bast: Yeah. I think to that point, a lot of law firms are run in a manner where the partners are attempting to maximize profitability without regard to anything else. So they're trying to pay people at that breaking point.

"What's the least amount I can pay them to where they're not going to leave? What's the most hours I can squeeze from them without regard to their longevity?" And they're running a business. That certainly makes sense in a lot of ways. That just hasn't been the way we've run this place.

Our view is we want to do well. We're running this business because we want to make money ultimately, but we really want our people to live well. We want them to be healthy. We want them to be happy. We want them to be at their kids’ sporting events and graduations.

That's not to say that client service doesn't come first. Client service comes first. But we strike a balance and it's not about squeezing every ounce out of every person. That's why they stick around, because they feel appreciated, they feel valued. Every single person here contributes in a meaningful way to the work that we do.

Elise Holtzman: You've already both started to answer what was my next question. It was about mentorship and talent development and retaining your people because there's so much conversation, as you started to say, Brett, in today's world. There are so many people moving around and hopping from firm to firm, and that sort of thing.

So, Jeff, you said that's why they stick around. Have you ever felt that there have been people that have come along that you've worked with who maybe haven't been a great fit for the culture? If so, how do you approach a situation like that?

Jeffrey Bast: We've always adopted the "hire slow, fire fast" mentality. When you realize that early, it's easier to get rid of somebody. By the way, terrible choice of words, "get rid of someone," we never get rid of somebody. But sometimes you have to terminate a relationship.

That's the hardest thing to do, firing someone. Usually, you're firing someone you like. I like them as a person. They're just not a good fit for the firm. For me, I always zoom out and say, "I'm not firing this person, I'm protecting these 22 other people or whatever the number is."

I'm doing this because I'm preserving their jobs. One bad employee—not that they're bad people—that's either not responsible or doesn't care or doesn't adopt the culture, can be poisonous to the entire firm. Malpractice can occur if somebody's really not paying attention or doing their job, but also just a bad attitude can be contagious.

We're super alert to that. We try to have as many touchpoints as we can. We have weekly huddles, we have monthly check-ins. It's not easy, but you have to be intentional about it and you have to work at it.

Elise Holtzman: It's also, I think, being willing to step into your own discomfort. A lot of people avoid doing this. They just go along because they're so uncomfortable with the idea. Understandably so, as you say, it's very challenging.

But when you're running a business and when, as you say, you are looking out for the best interests of the people that have thrown in with you and are willing to come to work every day, sometimes you have to put your own discomfort aside. That requires some personal bravery.

Brett Amron: Those are difficult conversations to have. What we try to do again on the communication front is have check-ins, keep the lines of communication open with us and with other people. We give the younger lawyers mentors. We talk to the mentors, we talk to the lawyers, we want everyone to be communicating.

If there's an issue, we want to make sure that the person that is having the issue or that we're having the issue with knows that. So at year end, when we have annual reviews, which we do, we make sure that when they walk in that room, there are no surprises. At least that's our goal.

Why? Because we've been communicating with them throughout the year. If they're completing the year and they're up for a bonus or they're not, they'll know by the time they walk in there, "I know they've mentioned this, but I've worked on this and I know I got better" or "It didn't get better, I know."

We don't want anyone to walk in blind. We want them to understand. We want them to try to get better. That's the goal. We've had some people that have come to us and have left us to go elsewhere, whether they've left town or they've gone to other firms.

It's interesting, there was one young lawyer that left us to go to a big national firm and actually change areas of practice. I remember the lawyer asked both of us separately—I don't know if, Jeff, you remember this—but he walked in and he asked me if I thought he was making a mistake. He asked Jeff the same question.

We gave two very different answers. My answer was, "I don't know if it's a mistake. That has to develop. At some point, this may be the right decision for you. I don't know. Do I know what you should expect from there? I do. Here's what I think you should expect from that firm. You know what to expect from us. Whether or not this is a mistake for you, I can't answer that. Time will tell." I'm going to let Jeff tell if he wants to tell you what your answer was.

Jeffrey Bast: I don't even know what you're talking about. I would say in our 16-year history, I could count on one hand the number of attorneys who have left here to go work at another firm in town. People have left to go to the government or moved, that I understand.

We've certainly let some people go over the years, but very rarely does somebody leave here to go to another firm without leaving town. The one Brett's talking about, who I don't remember, went to a totally different practice area at a totally different type of firm.

Brett Amron: Listen, I will tell you, it's becoming more and more challenging in this environment for firms like ours to keep and develop talent. It's hard.

Elise Holtzman: It is. It's funny, you guys keep anticipating my questions because I think we think about a lot of the same things. In 16 years, you've navigated different economic cycles, the pandemic, and as you say, an evolving legal market.

So much has changed since you guys started practicing law and even since you started the firm. What is a lesson that sticks with you about being able to stay resilient, to stay agile, to be able to roll with the punches as things change and evolve, and as you're trying to both do the work for your clients and grow this firm and sustain it?

Jeffrey Bast: I'd say two things come to mind. One is that we're fortunate that our practice is somewhat counter-cyclical. In bad economic times, we're on fire. When everyone's 401(k)s are down and their stock portfolios are down, we're busy as well. So we have a good balance to our practice.

The other is that our practice is a lagging indicator. We do a lot of litigation that rides on the tail of insolvencies. So even in a good economic cycle, we're still doing litigation.

Brett Amron: It has changed substantially over the years. At the beginning, we were this fledgling firm and starting out and trying to develop our reputation locally, statewide, and occasionally nationally. We've developed into a more significant, well-known firm based upon the work and results. That has two impacts, one, it has allowed us to develop more business but it has allowed us to recruit.

To recruit people and keep them is difficult, but it takes a certain kind of person that may not be totally interested in just money and being worked to the bone at a big firm and just being a number. That's not to say that every big firm is like that. I respect that and different departments operate differently.

Day one here, you're going to roll your sleeves up and get experience right away, and significant experience. But it has developed. I think COVID has advanced that much faster, especially down in Miami when we had an influx of big firms that were coming down, opening offices, hiring people, and throwing dollars left and right.

It's very hard for a young person to pass that up. I understand that. But what we try to do is have conversations with the lawyers along the way, not just waiting for somebody to come to us and say, "I'm leaving" or "I have this opportunity."

We try to have conversations with them generally speaking about life, outside the legal practice, and the long term. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Sometimes decisions in the short term that you think are really good for you may not end up being good for you in the long run.

But it's become really, really difficult. I think keeping the culture, keeping the communication, keeping the level of practice. But again, most of the time when we're in cases on the opposite side, it's the big international firms, so the level of work is high. I don't think that's the issue all the time. We try to keep it that way.

We try to develop lawyers and show them that there is a long-term play at the firm. We're not just trying to churn people out. We're trying to have them stay for a long time and grow with the firm.

Jeffrey Bast: To answer your question about what lessons we've learned about the changing climates, I like to borrow from scuba diving. There's a statement that goes, "Plan your dive and dive your plan."

What I mean by that and why that applies here is that we have a plan, we have a business plan. Sometimes it doesn't look like things are going well or you start to get nervous and you change the plan. We've learned—not always the easy way—to just stay the course. Do what works, and it will work. I have this saying that things work out in the end. If they're not working out, just know that it's not the end. So they will work out.

I think what happens with a lot of firms is as soon as you do business development, you do marketing, you run a podcast, and then when you get busy, you stop doing all those things because now you're so busy. Then what happens? You know, the clients dry up. So you have to stay the course. The same thing goes in reverse.

We had this once when we were less busy, we were concerned about revenue. As we start cutting costs and you stop the business development trips and you stop doing all the things that you really need to do, we've learned that when we formulate a plan, we must stay with the plan. If you make a plan and then you throw it out, then it was not a plan in the first place. Now you're just operating without a plan.

Elise Holtzman: Many of the things you've mentioned today come from your own growth and learning as a lawyer, as a leader. You mentioned being involved in EO. I met both of you through the Managing Partner Forum, where you go probably on a yearly basis or every other year to the conference to hang out with other managing partners so that you can continue to learn and grow.

You're 16 years in and you're still doing this. What is your philosophy about that? Why are you investing your time and energy in these other organizations, taking time away from billable hours and even hanging out with the people that you work with? What's in it for you and why do you continue to do it?

Jeffrey Bast: I think it's funny you ask that because I feel like when I hear 16 years, it sounds like a lot, but I still feel like we are building this firm. I think that is our entrepreneurial spirit. We still continue to look at our firm like it's a startup. We're constantly growing it, reiterating, relooking at it.

Maybe we should do this differently. We're constantly evaluating. I think the second you say, "I have this" and you can put it on autopilot, that's when the plane crashes, at least for law firms, hopefully not airplanes. We're constantly looking at it. I don't know if it's humility or just the entrepreneurial spirit, but we're still building this law firm. That's how we look at it, even though, like you said, it's 16 years in.

Brett Amron: I'll just add to that, which is for me, I think—this is the only time I'm going to say this—I think it's helpful to both me and Jeff personally as well, EO and Managing Partner Forum. I think it helps us personally, but that then translates into helping the firm. I think Jeff's right, it's the complacency component.

We're also trying to leave this place behind at some point. I know we're both on the younger side to think about that, but succession is certainly something that we're thinking about. How do we develop and continue to develop the firm, the people at our firm, so that there is something that remains behind when it is time for us to step away?

I think that it used to be we worried early on, like, "When is this going to end? Is today the day that the phone's going to stop ringing and we're not going to get anything?" But I think we're past that—way past that—given how long we've been in business. At some point, maybe it ends, but no, it's not on a day-to-day.

It's more about, "Okay, what can we do next year? What can we do this year or in three years from now? Plant the seeds today for three years from now and not just focus on a day-to-day thing." That's where we've evolved, I think, over time as well.

Elise Holtzman: I wish this podcast could go on forever because I have more questions for you. I want to ask you maybe two more questions before we wrap up today. If I'm not mistaken, you created something called the Business Advantage Forum. Plus, you have also hosted, as I mentioned earlier, more than 180 episodes of the Practice Podcast.

Don't you guys have enough to do? What is all of this about? You're learning, you're growing, you're practicing, you're mentoring, you're doing all of these things. What has been the genesis of these ideas? How does it help you achieve whatever it is you're looking to achieve?

Jeffrey Bast: That's a great question. I wish I knew the answer to that.

Brett Amron: I think it's just curiosity. I think both of us are curious people. We want to hear about other people's journeys, which is how and why we started the podcast. Initially, it was just the two of us riffing. Then we realized quickly that nobody cares.

So we wanted to bring people in and talk to them, a lot of people we've known for a long time. We brought you in, we've learned about your journey, how you got to where you are and what you do and what drives you. We've done that with other people we've known for a long time and we've learned so much along the way.

By the way, we can take pieces from that too, for our use and purposes as well. I think that's where the podcast comes from. The Business Event Forum is the same thing, which is bringing people together and trying to have a different experience when it comes to conferences and all that stuff. Not just going to the same old legal conference. It's more business-focused and community-related.

We make sure that we bring in a local charity once a year—every year, a different one—and we raise money and fully fund it. The charity benefits 100% of whatever proceeds people pay to attend, and we underwrite the full forum. The idea is to bring together people who are very knowledgeable about the business of law, but really business-focused and not just substantive-law-focused, and bringing people together to learn. That's the genesis of that.

Jeffrey Bast: I would add that in some respects, it's about gratitude for us. We are so grateful for what we have that we want to give back to the community and to our friends and colleagues. On the podcast, it originally started as marketing way to get our voices out there and be thought of as thought leaders.

Then we soon realized that we get 90-something percent of our clients from other lawyers. We try to always show appreciation for that—the referrals—and we try to return the favor when we can. But we can't always refer a case to a personal injury lawyer in Texas. So we may not have a case to refer them, but we can invite them on our podcast and promote them on social media. It's a small way of saying thank you to them.

The same thing with the Business Forum. We originally thought of it as a way to bring some of our clients, referral partners, and friends together to allow them to meet each other, learn, and grow together. In fact, the very first year, two of our panelists—one was the CEO of Burger King and the other was the CEO of a coding academy—met on this panel. Then Burger King started hiring all of their technology people from this coding academy. We were like, "Yes, success."

Like Brett said, we donate all the proceeds to a local charity. We struggle with that, like, "Is this worth it?" and talk about it after every year. We're like, "Maybe this will be our last year, it's just too much work." Then after the day comes, we're like, "God, that was awesome. I love that. We're going to do it again." So it's a rollercoaster, but that's life. Nobody wants to sit on a merry-go-round; that's boring. Rollercoasters are more fun.

Elise Holtzman: There are so many elements here that I just want to point out a few of them. Obviously, you guys are passionate about your firm and growth. I'm passionate about the work I do helping lawyers do those sorts of things, so pointing out some of this is important.

I'm hearing things like curiosity, growth, paying it forward, showing gratitude, being there for other people, and trying to create value for them. There are so many great takeaways here. I'm so grateful to you for sharing your experiences with us. I think there are going to be a lot of things here that other people can take and run with and maybe help shift their mindsets and approaches.

As we wrap up our time together today, I want to ask you a question I ask all my guests at the end of the show, and I'm going to pose it to both of you. So Brett, maybe we'll start with you. There is a phenomenon called the curse of knowledge, where experts sometimes forget that what is so obvious and natural to them is not at all obvious to others.

When it comes to running and growing a thriving law firm, what's a principle or piece of advice that may seem obvious to you, but you think is important for people to hear?

Brett Amron: Actually, I have two, but very quick. One is patience, which doesn't come naturally for me. So I've had to learn to have patience. The second is listen. I always say it—my kids know the saying very well—"God gave you two ears, two eyes, and one mouth for a reason." You should always listen, pay attention, and observe more than you speak. I think those two general ideas have helped me along the way.

Jeffrey Bast: I'll agree with those. I'll say something that we've talked a lot about on this podcast is trust. I think trust, or the lack of trust, is what holds a lot of law firm leaders back. That works in a lot of ways.

They don't hire people because they don't trust that anyone else can do the work. They don't let someone else handle the hearing or the deposition, so they end up doing all the work themselves. I always tell people, "If you don't have an assistant, you are an assistant." You have to trust that someone else is capable of doing this thing.

I think both Brett and I do this when we're out of the office messages, our internal says, "If you need me, call me, but know that I trust you. I trust you to make decisions." It's true. We remind people all the time, "I trust you." Even if they get it wrong, I still know that they tried, and we can probably fix whatever they got wrong, hopefully. But no, they didn't get it so wrong. There's not one way to do anything, so you have to trust that others are capable.

If you never trust them to handle matters, they'll never grow, and you'll never evolve as a leader. So trust.

Elise Holtzman: Fantastic. Love it. I love all of it. Thank you both so much, Jeff and Brett, for being here today. I'm going to thank our listeners for tuning in as well. Did you want to say something?

Brett Amron: Yeah, I just wanted to say tune into Episode 187 of the Practice Podcast—that's The Lawyer's Edge. It's our guest host, Elise Holtzman. It was amazing.

Elise Holtzman: Awesome. Yes. All right. Make sure to listen to Episode 187 of their podcast, The Practice Podcast. I'm thankful to both of you, as I said, and thank you to our listeners. We'll see you next time. In the meantime, be bold, take action, and make things happen. Take care.