Hieu Williams | Accelerate Your Career Growth with the Power of Questions

Elise Holtzman: Hi, everyone. It's Elise Holtzman here, a former practicing lawyer and the host of The Lawyer's Edge Podcast, where I sit down with successful attorneys, legal marketing specialists, business leaders, and authors to talk about how lawyers and law firms can grow and sustain healthy, profitable businesses.

Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of The Lawyer's Edge Podcast. I'm Elise Holtzman, your host, and I've got a fantastic high-energy guest for you today. We're going to talk about her unique story in the law going from a junior lawyer to a partner, a leader, and a rainmaker.

Before I introduce her, today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a nine-month business development program created by women lawyers for women and lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers and supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. Registration is now open for the 2025 Ignite cohort and early bird pricing is still available. To learn more about Ignite, go to thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

My fantastic guest today is Hieu Williams, a partner with Hirschfeld Kraemer, an employment law boutique in the San Francisco Bay Area and in other areas of California. She focuses her practice on representing employers both as a litigator and an advisor and counselor. Hieu works with organizations, executives, and supervisors from a wide range of industries, representing them in state and federal courts, as well as before numerous agencies, including the EEOC and the NLRB, among others.

In her role as client advisor, she regularly provides advice to clients and helps them develop policies, conduct trainings, and perform workplace investigations. On top of all of that, Hieu was also a first-generation American whose parents immigrated to the United States during the Vietnam War. Hieu, welcome to the lawyer's edge.

Hieu Williams: Hi, Elise. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Elise Holtzman: I am so excited to have you here. You and I always have such fun conversations and so I'm excited that other people are going to be able to be flies on the wall and listen in today. Let's start from the beginning. How did you wind up choosing the law and choosing an employment law boutique in which to practice?

Hieu Williams: It's a great question. As you mentioned, I'm a daughter of Vietnamese immigrants and I had a really traditional family so I had pretty limited options. It was going to be “be a doctor, be an engineer, or be a lawyer,” or something like that. But all kidding aside, I'm not very good at math and the other professions didn't appeal to me. But I always thought I'd go into business or go into law.

Originally, I thought I'd go into business or marketing or some sort of communication, something sexy like that as you're an undergrad trying to figure things out. I majored in communication and I graduated from Berkeley, Go Bears. But I wasn't quite ready to go to law school yet. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do or business school for that matter. So I worked for a while and did a bunch of different jobs and different careers actually.

I took four years off between undergrad and law school. Eventually, I decided, “Okay, I was ready. I wanted to take the next step and actually find out what my career should be.” Again, I was stuck between business school and law school. Practically speaking, I thought if I went to business school, I could start a business or go into business or work for a company, but I wouldn't be able to be a lawyer. But if I became a lawyer and if it didn't work out or if I wanted to expand my opportunities, I could always go into business. It would give me, again, just more opportunities.

I just decided, “Okay, let's try law school.” What was interesting was at the time, I was working as a general manager of a restaurant, and one of my jobs was to ensure that all the employees were signing [inaudible] reviewing and signing their acknowledgments from employee handbooks. At that point, then I was explaining to them what some of the policies and procedures were.

A lot of the staff actually, English was their second language. I am actually conversationally fluent in Spanish so it was through explaining these handbooks that at the time were in English, I thought, “Well, this is awful. I'm not equipped. I'm not an HR. I shouldn't be the one explaining the law to individuals and getting them to understand this.” Then that piqued my interest in employment law.

I decided, “Okay, if I'm going to be a lawyer, I really like employment law. I like explaining the law. I like making sure everyone understands what they're entitled to and for employers to know what they can and can't do or what they shouldn't do, technically.” Then that's what eventually helped me decide for sure I wanted to do an employment law.

Elise Holtzman: We've talked about this idea that you're a first-generation American. That probably could be a whole podcast series on its own just talking about what that looks like and immigrating from Vietnam during the war. I'm curious in what ways, if at all, your background and your family story influenced your decisions and how you show up as a lawyer and a leader?

Hieu Williams: It has had a really, I'd say subtle influence. I mean, I'm sure there are really impactful ways it's influenced me, but when I go back and look at it, I think what it did was it set me up to look at what I wanted to do or what I wanted to accomplish at a very young age and figure out a lot on my own how to get there. What I mean by that is going to college, for example, was an experience that my parents didn't have. They didn't understand, like that's a whole process, like applying on FAFSA, getting financial aid, scholarships, let alone like the LSAT and going to law school.

All these things that you have to do if you want to go to college or you want to pursue a career or something, a lot of people would take for granted, but I had to just figure it out on my own and how you figure things out on your own, I've learned is you just ask questions. You have to figure out what you want to do and figure out what questions you need to ask and figure out who to ask those questions to get the answers.

A lot of it is being ungraceful and fumbling through it and not being shy and just know, “Hey, I don't know this,” and if I want something and I want that for myself, I have to figure it out and I don't know everything so I'm certainly going to ask people who I think know something. Then part of that is also finding the right mentors and sponsors who can help you through that process.

That's how I think it's impacted me a lot is just figuring out that while my parents worked really hard to support me in so many other ways, they were limited in how they could do that in terms of getting me to that next step.

Elise Holtzman: One of the things I know about you is that you are a very busy woman. In addition to practicing law, you do a lot of other things. First of all, I know you're very involved in the Employment Law Alliance and you're getting even more deeply involved as the years go by. You also manage the San Francisco office of Hirschfeld Kraemer, your law firm.

For starters, why do all of those things? Why not focus on practicing law, doing a good job, earning your money, and going home? Because you also have a family so that's a lot on one person's plate. What drives you to do everything you're doing?

Hieu Williams: It sounds really like it's such an easy answer and almost cliche, but when you thoroughly enjoy what you're doing, and it also works sometimes, but overall it doesn't feel like work. Going back to my comments earlier about asking questions and finding sponsors and mentors, I had the privilege of having really wonderful mentors and sponsors teach me the practice of law and also how to be a great individual and to give back.

For me, when I think about helping manage the San Francisco office, that to me goes hand in hand is wanting to make sure that the other attorneys, the more junior attorneys, the associates have the same experience that I did, or maybe even a better one. Making sure that their workload is balanced, making sure that they're learning and that they're being challenged and that things are running smoothly and that they're not hiding under their desk and crying.

That's really, really important to me and making sure that the office provides a specific type of supportive culture that really does balance family priorities as well as client needs and things like that. For me, that's what I would want in a workplace. Now I have the opportunity to actually shape that for others. That's why I work really hard at making sure that that's what others receive when they come and work at our firm. It doesn't seem like work because those are the things I want and in order to make them happen, I want to have a hand in that.

I think what also drives me, too, is I'm at a point in my career where all the practicing law is great and [inaudible] my clients and is really, really, really satisfying, helping resolve their problems or getting them out of a sticky situation. I really want to build something. I just don't want to be transactional.

Part of helping with managing the office or helping my clients through problems to me is more about the bigger picture. It's like strengthening those relationships and seeing other people be successful is what makes me really feel good about what I do. Otherwise, I think I might just feel like I'm just moving a pile of money from one party to another. I think after a while, they just wouldn't be enough for me.

Elise Holtzman: Do you think you're motivated similarly for the work you do outside the firm? Because again, I mentioned you're very involved in the Employment Law Alliance, which is a global group of employment lawyers who learn together and support each other and refer to each other, all of that kind of thing, or is it something different for you?

Hieu Williams: No, I say it's the same is I've had such a wonderful experience being a part of the ELA, and like you said, it's a network of attorneys. But in building those relationships, I've learned a lot, and I have now a number of individuals that I can go to when I have questions or when there are needs that my clients have that I can ask questions of, but because I have had such great relationships there, when I look at the next generation of attorneys, I want them to have that experience too.

Just naturally, because I want that, I've had such a great experience, I want to share that with others and make sure that they're having a similar or even better experience than I did. I think part of it is my crazy personality where I don't do anything halfway.

Elise Holtzman: That's for sure. That I do know about you, I think we're similar in that respect, but you certainly don't.

Hieu Williams: It sounds something like, “Oh, I'm a superwoman and I'm doing it all,” you pick and choose depending on what the season is and what works for you and there are going to be times when I have to, I want to put my family first and do that and have that part of my life really, really thrive and then there's going to be times when I'm really going to be focused on my clients and then also on the ELA.

Elise Holtzman: You mentioned sponsors and mentors a number of times and it sounds like you're in the process of being that person for others. What are some of the things you think you got from sponsors and mentors? How have they helped you develop and grow as a lawyer and as a leader?

Hieu Williams: A lot of my successful sponsorship or mentorship relationships have been successful because of both sides being really open and honest and candid and not taking things personally. What I mean by that is you have to be really good at self-reflecting on yourself and trying to figure out, “Okay, what are my strengths and then what are my weaknesses? If I know these are my weaknesses, how do I get better at and improve upon those weaknesses? And if I have these strengths, how do I create opportunities for me to showcase my strengths and become even better at what my strengths are?”

If you have that self-awareness, and then you're asking the right questions of your sponsors and mentors and being really direct and saying, “Hey,” this is an example of something that I did at my prior firm and I really wanted to litigate so I was not shy about saying, "This is what I want to do. Are there cases that I can get on that are going to go to trial,” or “You're going to trial? How can I help? I don't care if I'm just doing all the grunt work. I just want to learn.”

But not being shy and saying, "This is what I want, can I help you or can I have this opportunity?” But then also being vulnerable and listening to the feedback when you get it.

Elise Holtzman: That's the hard part, right?

Hieu Williams: Yeah, that is the hard part. I know that that was just something that is not always easy. I cried a lot. It's hard to hear what you suck at, what you're not good at. But if they're willing to give you that feedback and they're doing it because they really care about you, and then if you actually are able to internalize it and improve upon it and learn from it, then I think the sponsor and mentor also feel rewarded watching you grow.

I think that's how it's been really, really, really successful, is you working at it, and then them being motivated or incentivized to tell you more because people want to help. I think people want you to succeed, ultimately, and if they see how hard you're trying to grow and improve, they're rooting for you. Ultimately, I think that's what I get motivated to when I have a junior associate, and they're struggling a little bit. But if I tell them what the expectations are and they're able to improve, then I'm excited because I feel like they are as invested in this relationship as I am.

Elise Holtzman: You participated in last year's cohort of the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, which I mentioned every episode lately and I've mentioned as a program for women partners and counsel who want to grow a book of business and step confidently into leadership roles. What made you decide to join the program?

Hieu Williams: I really wanted to learn how to approach rainmaking and building my book of business from a thought-out methodical way. I'd gone through law school, I'd been a lawyer, I know how to litigate, but nobody teaches you how to build a book of business. I mean, really, at least I hadn't had the opportunity to really have somebody sit with me and talk to me.

I've had a professional coach before so I could learn how to ask the right questions, but I never really thought about “Okay, this is what I'm generating now, and maybe it's a small amount or it's a good amount, but how do I grow that and how do I get better at it? How do I be more efficient at it?” Now I'm a mom. Now I'm doing more management stuff. How do I try to grow my piece of the pie within the same amount of time?

I think I just wanted to really look at “What am I good at? What do I like doing? And then how do I get better at doing it without just fumbling around?” I'm the type of person that needs structure and also knowing that, so I identified a weakness and figuring out, “Okay, I'm not going to be able to do this on my own. I need somebody to come up with a structure or teach me how to do it so now I can try to execute it,” that to me was what really pushed me to do the program.

Elise Holtzman: What was it like for you being in the program?

Hieu Williams: It was such a great experience and what I really, really enjoyed about it is that I was with a small cohort of other female attorneys who came from varying backgrounds and that everyone in the group I think were as equally as vulnerable as I was in sharing what their challenges are and what their goals are, and then problem-solving and talking about how each of us might approach that situation.

I think that was really helpful because there might have been challenges that somebody else was having that I'm not currently facing or have not faced, but it was really great to kind of, again, just talk about, “Hey, how might you respond to it?”

It was also really good to hear about how other law firms do different things. It wasn't just employment law firms, which is what my background is, but hearing what other law firms in other parts of the country in different practices of law and different sizes, what their challenges were, and how those attorneys were navigating them.

Elise Holtzman: You mentioned structure. As you know, I have a fondness for structure myself. How did you feel like the structure in Ignite helped you? Was it too structured? Was it something that you could work within? Was everybody expected to do things the same way? What was your experience like?

Hieu Williams: No, it wasn't structured at all. When I use the word structure, what I mean by that is that it was nice to have it broken down into segments of what are the topics we're going to approach. First, I felt like it was about understanding who I was, again, my strengths and weaknesses and where I was identifying my goals and what I was hoping to get out of the program.

Then one of my structures is that there was a time for learning the content. There was time for discussion. There were also small bite-size assignments to help me dig deeper into the content and then having this accountability piece afterward of, “Well, if we're going to be vulnerable and talk to each other, then I have to do the work to get there.”

When I say to do the work, it's like a homework assignment, it's easy to push it off and say, “Well, I gotta do this and do that and other things, competing priorities.” But being held accountable, knowing that I'm going to show up and talk to these other women who are taking time out of their important day, and we're in this together, then I better be prepared and I want to pay attention and I want to be there for them.

If I hope to get something out of the program, then I've got to put the work in. So, no, I didn't find the structure to be rigid when one thinks about structure. But just again, it wasn't like, “Let's sit here and talk about our challenges. Let's just talk.” It really was content focus, also very individualized because that's also worse, there's going to some sort of workshop or going to a webinar that really doesn't apply to you.

It's hard because you have like 10 to 15 women in this cohort and you can't be all things to all people. But what I really liked is there was time for group discussion and then time to break away and do individualized reflection and then like application in your life.

Elise Holtzman: Now that you're out of the program and hopefully participating with Ignite Alumni going forward, or alumnae I guess we should say, what are your takeaways? What are you doing differently? How are you thinking differently? No one's perfect. We can't expect people to go to a program and run out and all of a sudden they're a full-time business developer. Nobody has the bandwidth for that. I'm curious, how do you feel that you're showing up differently now as a leader, as a rainmaker, as a lawyer, since you've had this experience?

Hieu Williams: I think I have a lot more confidence that I can get there, that I have these concrete goals, and that I have a plan. It's a plan that I think is going to work for me, and that it's a big picture plan, and I know we talked about this as a business development plan, but so it's like, “What are my big picture plans?”

But then also these bite-sized assignments for myself that I have to get done in order to get there, in holding myself accountable. I think that I approach it much more methodically, which was what I wanted when I joined the program and something that I really learned was setting aside the time.

Nobody overnight wakes up and is like, “I want to be a rainmaker,” and then it just happens. You have to work at it like you do everything else. Even if it's only a half hour a week or an hour a week or whatever it is I can do, it's setting aside that time and then over time, putting in that energy and effort ideally is going to yield results.

Then it's not going to feel like work because I know that I'm doing something for myself and it's doing things that I like doing. For example, I talked about this in my group and anyone who knows me knows I don't like writing, I don't do blogs, I don't do white pages, or anything like that.

I'll do a webinar any day of the week or a podcast which is why I'm here, but what are the marketing activities that I like to do that work for me that feel authentic to me and then knowing what those are? Now going and doing them and then planning it out so it doesn't seem overwhelming. That's what I definitely got from the program.

Elise Holtzman: I think it's helpful for people to hear that when they're at the stage you are, which is you've achieved so much, and yet there's still so much more that you want to do or some different things that you want to do.

There is that evolution from, “I am an individual contributor to this law firm. I do great things for my clients. I help the firm. I bill my hours,” to, “I am going to step into a leadership role. I am going to start sponsoring and mentoring other people. I do want to make sure that I can figure out how to prioritize my family when the time is right for that. I do want to figure out how to grow a book of business.”

It's hard to find the time for that. You've heard me say this before, we never find the time. We have to create the time, but you can say that. It's easier said than done. I love that things have changed for you and that you are developing those habits because there's the mindset piece, there's the learning piece, and then there's the habit.

Even if they had taught us this stuff in law school, which we acknowledge they didn't, even if we had gone to our first big law firm and they had taught us these things there, which they also didn't, we could know all the right stuff, but making it happen is often the hard part.

Hieu Williams: Definitely. I think the program if I had to sum it all up that's what it did for me. I can be a rainmaker. It's not this idea that is floating around in the air, some future, “Maybe when I grow up I'll be a rainmaker.” No, it's okay. I want to be a rainmaker, I can be a rainmaker.

The way to get there is to make time for it and do the things that I love. How do you do that? One, creating some structure for me and holding myself accountable. I am the type of person who thrives off the energy that I get from other people.

Yes, I could do this at home if I was super disciplined by myself but in reality, I need it, I need to be with a group of other like-minded individuals, not all like me because we all have different personalities and different experiences but it was really great to have these other women to talk to about these similar issues or problems and go through it together.

Then now I have these great friendships that I know I'm going to call when I have a different roadblock, obstacle, or challenge. Then I'm excited to hear about their updates and how they're doing and things like that.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah, I love that. I love the power of a community where everybody's rowing in the same direction even if their rowing skills are different or their style of rowing is different. I'm going to go to a question that I ask all of my guests at the end of our time together, and I have a feeling you and I may spend a little more time on this than I usually do with some of my guests.

There's a phenomenon called the Curse of Knowledge where experts sometimes forget that what is so obvious and natural to them is not at all obvious to others. For you, when it comes to advancing in your career, as I said, from a junior attorney into a senior lawyer, a leader, someone who's mentoring and sponsoring others, a rainmaker, what is a principle or piece of advice, or maybe multiple principles or piece of advice that may seem obvious to you at this stage, but are important for people to hear when they want to pursue a similar path?

Hieu Williams: I think it goes back to, again, when you said how being a first-generation daughter of Vietnamese immigrants impacted you. My piece of advice, wherever you want to go in your career, is to ask questions. I have found that that served me well from figuring out how to get into law school, how to apply, what is an interview like, how to get to be a trial attorney, and how to do things.

But even then when I was deciding whether to switch firms, or even like being a partner, what does that entail? What's required of me? What are my expectations? Having safe places or individuals to ask those questions, because you don't know what you don't know.

I know, Elise, you say that all the time. If you want to advance in any part of your career whether you want to be an equity partner, you want to increase your comp, you want to find out how somebody gets that client, and whatever, you have to ask questions.

It's like doing a really good self-reflection of like, “Okay, what don't I know? What questions do I need to ask to know the answers? Then who has the answers or who do I think has the answers? Who can help me get there?” Finding individuals I can trust that I can ask that.

When I was a younger attorney, there were still times when I didn't ask the right questions. What that results in is you just doing good work, putting your head down, and hoping for the best. Hoping that you're being compensated fairly, hoping that they view you as a partner, hoping that one day you'll ascend into the leadership ranks of a specific firm. Instead of hoping, instead of just thinking it'll all work out, it is really identifying those goals, identifying your weaknesses, building upon them, asking the right questions, and then seeing if you can get there.

It may even be asking the questions to be like, "Do I even want this? Do I want to be a partner at this firm? Do I want to be an equity partner if that's what it takes?" Or even deciding if you want to leave that firm is, "Okay, I'm looking at these other options. Do I go in-house? Do I go to this other boutique firm?” Then asking all the right questions to help me figure out, “Is that the right next step or the right place for me?”

If you can't answer that question “Is that the next step or the right place for me?” then think about what questions you have in order for you to get to that answer. I know it seems a lot easier said than done, but when I look back at my life and the choices I've had to make, it was how I made those tough decisions was continually asking questions of people that I trust. Again, finding the right people to bounce ideas off of and just to talk things through.

Elise Holtzman: You mentioned that in the beginning, you didn't always ask the right questions. Was it that you weren't asking the right questions or that you weren't asking questions at all?

Hieu Williams: Oh, I definitely weren’t asking questions at all. It was that naivete that I think I'm being paid fairly or I think they viewed me as leadership or partnership material, they'll give me that assignment because that's just how the world works, but sadly it doesn't.

You do have to advocate for yourself and part of advocating for yourself is asking the questions and being really direct about what it is that you want. I'm not saying be rude about it or ask out of turn, there's a time and a place and everything. I think that's actually what the Ignite Program helped me with too is not just asking questions like, “Well, what's the goal here?” and having a plan.

If you want to ask for more money or an increase in comp, you want to be prepared for that conversation and also, not just go in blind and ask a bunch of questions and expect to get paid more. I think it's making sure you do your research so that you can ask questions and that you also are able to answer questions that are asked of you so you come from a place of knowledge.

Elise Holtzman: One of the reasons I ask you that follow-up question is that I know you as somebody who is confident and straightforward and absolutely will speak up. I was curious whether you really, because you said something about not asking the right questions, whether it was really about not asking the right questions simply because you didn't know, or whether there was something holding you back in terms of asking at all.

What I hear is that there was that naivete, which is understandable, first of all, just being young, being in an industry that you hadn't been in before, and having parents that hadn't had the experience that you were looking to have.

But also, I think it's important for people now and, again, you are a sponsor, you are a role model and a leader and a mentor for other people to be willing to say, “Listen, this is the Hieu Williams of today. This is not necessarily the Hieu Williams of 15 or 20 years ago,” and being able to share that information with other people so that they do know that now's the time to ask if you have questions. Nobody's going to necessarily come and give you the answers.

Hieu Williams: 100% I'm definitely a different person now than I was a couple of years ago. Sometimes I still kick myself for having waited so long to ask the right questions or to figure out what I wanted and think the naivety and think, "Oh, I'll just work hard and everything will work out."

And it might. I think there's some luck involved in that or if you have the right people looking out for you. But even if you're the best attorney or the best team player or the best leader, I think there's truth to be told in the idea that if you want something and you know want it, you have to go out there and advocate for yourself.

Even now, I still struggle with it in tough conversations. Luckily, I feel like I've got some good sponsors in my corner, you, Elise, being one of them, my husband, my good friends, and my colleagues from the Ignite Program where I can call and say like, “Am I being crazy or should I do this now?” or, “Should I say this?” or, “What would you do? How would you say it? Is that too direct? Is that not direct enough?” All that stuff. I think it's important to find your own voice, but you have to work at that too.

Elise Holtzman: Well, it's a difference between—sorry to interrupt you, but you and I are good at that because we're both extroverts—I think it's a difference, and we've talked about this before, between waiting for something good to happen, and as you said, hoping for something good to happen, and at least making the effort to make something good happen for yourself, and that doesn't mean climbing on top of other people, it just means being proactive and being intentional.

I think your advice is the best advice here today, is asking those questions. I love that that's how we're ending is because it sounds like that's been so instrumental to your success. This is something that you're teaching folks who are coming behind you. Thank you so much for being here today, Hieu. It's always fun to talk to you.

I'm going to thank our listeners for tuning in as well. If you've enjoyed today's show, please subscribe, rate, and review us at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. In the meantime, be bold, take action, and make things happen. We'll see you next time.

Thank you for tuning in. If you've enjoyed today's show, please subscribe, rate, and review us at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. In the meantime, be bold, take action, and make things happen. We'll see you next time.