Kirsten Branigan | Build an Army: How the Legal Profession Can Retain More Women Lawyers

Elise Holtzman: Hi, everyone. It's Elise Holtzman here, a former practicing lawyer and the host of The Lawyer's Edge Podcast. Welcome back for another episode.

Many lawyers enter the profession with the hope of making a difference, of creating a more just, equitable, and inclusive world. But somewhere along the way, that mission can get buried under billable hours, client demands, and the pressure to succeed.

Today's guest never lost sight of that original purpose. She's been a driving force behind statewide DEI efforts, a leader in women's legal organizations, and a trusted advisor to law firms and companies working to create lasting change. So I'm really excited to talk to her, not just for those reasons, but because she's a very good friend of mine, and I've been waiting to have her on this podcast for a long time. She's a busy lady.

Before we dive in, today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a nine-month business development program created by women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers and supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. To learn more about Ignite, visit thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

Now for my guest. Today's guest is Kirsten Branigan, the founder and managing partner of KSBranigan Law PC, a boutique woman-owned law firm with offices in New Jersey and New York that provides legal and neutral services, primarily in the areas of employment law and alternative dispute resolution.

The firm, which is a WBENC-certified business and a NAMWOLF member, assists organizations, including law firms, in preventing and resolving workplace conflicts, fostering positive environments, mitigating bias, and minimizing legal risk. They do that through a comprehensive range of training programs, investigations, compliance audits, mediations, and culture assessments.

Kirsten is very experienced, having practiced employment law for the last 30 years. We're going to talk all about how and why Kirsten launched the firm and what she did to lead a statewide revitalization of the New Jersey Women Lawyers Association. It's quite a story. So, Kirsten, welcome to The Lawyer's Edge.

Kirsten Branigan: Hi, Elise. I'm so excited to be here.

Elise Holtzman: I'm delighted to have you, Kirsten. We've got so much good stuff to talk about. The first thing I want to do is thank you, which just popped into my head that I think I should thank you publicly because you have been such a supporter of this podcast and a supporter of me and The Lawyer's Edge for a very long time.

I remember you several years ago standing up in front of a group of women at the New Jersey Women Lawyers Association and basically announcing that everyone in the room should be listening to this podcast called The Lawyer's Edge. It makes me laugh because when Kirsten Branigan speaks, everyone listens. So we'll talk a little bit more about why that happens. But I do want to thank you for your support. It's been very meaningful to me.

Kirsten Branigan: I'm a huge supporter of you and your podcast, as you know. So when I told everyone to listen to it, it's because I get tremendous value out of it. I know that the women in the organization would as well.

Elise Holtzman: Oh, thanks for that. So let's talk about you and what you've been doing for a very long time now. First of all, you started at a large New Jersey law firm when you started practicing. What made you decide to leave that firm and start your own practice?

Kirsten Branigan: Yeah, so many, many years ago, I guess it's been almost 20 years at this point, I had started working as a summer associate and got a full-time job and just saw myself as working in the Biglaw environment.

At some point in time, years go by and stress occurs and children come, and all of a sudden, things became a little bit stressful for me. I decided that the rubber was meeting the road in a very significant way for me. I decided that I needed to take a step back, reset. I was really feeling discouraged, not able to necessarily do everything I wanted to do with my family and meet all the requirements of the firm at the same time.

So it was a very existential crisis, I would say, and one that I think many women go through. For me, I made the decision to go back to probably the inspiration and idealism that I had when I decided to become a lawyer. That was always about looking at the plight of women and really decided to become a lawyer sitting in a women's history class, thinking about, "Well, women really have been oppressed in the law for many years, not being able to own property, enter contracts, et cetera."

Once I got tapped back into that idealism, I thought to myself, "Well, why can't I do this? Why can't I be my own boss and start my own firm?" It's daunting, and it's a decision that many women fear. I would encourage them not to and to take the leap. I'm so glad that I did. That's what led me to start my own firm.

Elise Holtzman: What is important to your firm? Because I know that many, many people start their own firm and they do great legal work for their clients. They do a good job of serving their clients. Perhaps they're doing a good job of serving their employees and themselves as owners. I think for you, it goes beyond that. What is important to your firm? What are some of the values and the goals that you have?

Kirsten Branigan: I really set out on a mission when I started the firm to make it a place that I thought a law firm should be. Not to say, I mean, I spent a long time at the firm that I was at. I have some really wonderful relationships and really learned a lot and was trained to be the lawyer that I am there.

But I really feel like because in Biglaw firms, as we know, and I know you know, because I've heard you talk about this topic, it really has become the business of law. A lot of these firms are really driven by the bottom line in a way that sometimes can be detrimental to the lawyers that work there, sometimes can be detrimental to the clients.

I really wanted a firm that was leaning into flexibility and balance and also empathy, both for the clients and also for the people that work for the firm, understanding that we are all people. As lawyers, we absorb a lot of times not only the pressures that our clients put on us, but we have to be worried about court deadlines. We have to be worried about what our firms may require.

And then, of course, our family and what our family needs. So lawyers are often, I think, putting themselves last. I think that's also true for support staff that work with lawyers. So we really wanted to make sure that we were building a culture where flexibility and empathy and taking the person as their whole person and valuing that person and their contributions so that it really wouldn't be the "what have you done for me lately?" mindset.

"This is all just about the bottom line." It would be a place where not just women, but often women that are balancing family life and care of their elderly parents or variety of issues that they have to tend to in their lives would feel supported and feel that they could come to work in a positive environment and that they would be valued even if sometimes they need time off or accommodations or mental health days or therapy or whatever is in order on a given day.

So we are very big on mental health days and making sure and encouraging our staff to take good care of themselves and our lawyers. So that is the culture that I really set out to create 20 years ago. We've thankfully done a great job with it. We have a great team.

Elise Holtzman: I think a lot of firms, especially some smaller firms, may start out with these kinds of ideals. Yet I think that the practice of law, as you say, the bottom line, can get in the way. What are some of the ways in which you've enabled yourself and the other people in your firm to stick to those ideals and to put those ideals into practice in a profession where we know that we have to quickly respond to clients, that you do have to pay the expenses and pay your people and make sure that the checkbook balances at the end of the day?

Kirsten Branigan: It's not easy. It is not easy. I would definitely have to be honest about that. It really takes a lot of effort to be very intentional. I think that there are times in the work that we do—you mentioned some of it—we do a lot of workplace investigations. When those come up, they are very time sensitive. We are always putting out fires and making sure that we're looking into allegations quickly, reporting back to the client, drafting sometimes very comprehensive investigation reports, all within a very short period of time.

So when those deadlines are there, our team is all hands on deck and they step up to the occasion. That may sometimes be night hours, that may sometimes be weekend hours. Then when we're in between those big projects, we really make sure that people take care of themselves and that we allow for whatever they need. We balance it out as best we can, but make no mistake—I think we all know in this profession—it is a busy and demanding profession, and we're service providers. So when we have to provide the service to the clients and those are within short time periods, we have to rise to that occasion if we expect to be hired again. It really is a delicate balance.

Elise Holtzman: Let's talk a little bit about the New Jersey Women Lawyers Association. So you and I are both in New Jersey. I know that you've been in New Jersey for a very long time. I do remember hearing stories about how there was this thing called the New Jersey Women Lawyers Association, and it had died out a little bit. Then enter Kirsten Branigan, who was wearing sort of like a superhero costume and recreated it. So tell me a little bit about that. How did the New Jersey Women Lawyers Association get revitalized and take shape? What was your involvement in it?

Kirsten Branigan: So I was sitting next to one of the original founders, Marilyn Askin, who was one of the women that helped establish the New Jersey Women Lawyers Association in the early 1980s. It is an independent bar association, separate and apart from the New Jersey State Bar Association. Their primary mission when they started was really focused on getting women to be judges. That was the driving force.

So they did that. It was a couple of decades. They were doing that good work. Then Marilyn and several of her colleagues got to a point where they were going to retire. I just happened to be sitting next to her at a dinner, I think it was probably a Rutgers dinner. We both went to Rutgers, we're both Rutgers Law alum. She said something along the lines of, "Well, women of your generation don't care about these issues. Therefore, this organization is going to die out."

I politely explained to Marilyn that my generation had different challenges. Many were the same, but many were different because we were getting hired by the big firms. But we were in a bit of a crisis in terms of staying within the profession, advancing within the profession. So I said, "I think it's shifted. I think if you really want to attract the women into the fold, we need to update the mission. We need to focus it a little bit more on those issues."

So she challenged me and said, "Well, we need a charismatic young leader who can breathe new life into this organization." Of course—

Elise Holtzman: You've been chosen.

Kirsten Branigan: I've been chosen. I came home and I'll never forget, my first two children were three and 18 months. I had just made the decision to start my own firm. I came home and told my husband, "Oh, and by the way, I'm also going to revitalize this statewide organization at the same time." He said, "Okay, well, good luck with that and I'll be here to support you," and he was and he did.

It was really an amazing time because it really was just a void in the state of New Jersey where women were not connected in a way that they now are. I remember going through my old-fashioned Rolodex, which I am a proud Gen Xer, so I actually did have an old-fashioned Rolodex with little cards. If I had a woman that I had a case against or, it was like that commercial from the 1980s, "And she called her friend, and then she called her friend, and so on, and so on," it really was like that, where I would get a lead on another woman at another firm who might be on board.

Really, women throughout the state took my call, many of whom didn't know who I was. Not only did they take the call, but when I said, "Are you in? This is what we're doing," I got responses far and wide. "Yes, we're in. We're here and we're willing to..." I believe Lynda Bennett, who's a partner at Lowenstein Sandler, had a great email response back to me along the lines of, "Looking forward to working with you to compel radical change."

That really was the vibe and the moment. We're 20 years out from that revitalization coming up in 2026. We really have built an amazing revitalization of this organization.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah. Just to put a number on it, I know that I'm a member of the organization and we have an annual gala every March. There's only one location in North Jersey that will hold us because this annual gala gets more than 700 people showing up, which is, you know, when you consider that 20 years ago it was dying out. It had run its course. It had done a great job, but it was dying out. The vitality of the organization is plain to see for anybody who shows up to one of these events. So many people do.

So tell me a little bit now about, as you're sitting here 20 years out in this organization, what's going on with women in the profession as you see it? I ask you this question because you have more information than many people do. You've been involved in studies with Rutgers University on the advancement of women in the profession. You've seen all kinds of surveys. You are talking to people about this on a regular basis. You're involved in meetings of the organization as well as meetings of NAMWOLF and all of that sort of thing. What are you seeing that's changed and what are you seeing that hasn't changed?

Kirsten Branigan: Yeah, so it really is interesting. Just by way of background, when I got out of law school, 50% of my classmates were women at Rutgers Law School. I, as I'm sure you also, Elise, grew up in a time when Title IX was in existence, right? So girls played sports, and I played soccer, and I played basketball, and I was raised to believe that I could do and be anything.

Off I went to college and law school and didn't really see barriers based on gender. It was not until I had my kids that I realized, when I looked around, many of the women that I had gone to law school with and were in the profession alongside of me were dropping ranks and leaving the profession.

I joke with my husband—now, I know he doesn't really appreciate me publicly sharing this but I will share it just because I have told this—that as a teacher, we needed my salary. I couldn't opt out. I had to stay in the game somehow. So I say I thank my husband for not making enough money, because had he, I may have opted out with many of the other female colleagues at the time.

Because when you really get burnt out in this profession and you don't see a path forward, it really can be daunting. I can see why many women leave. So I think that we still are navigating a lot of these challenges. Even though you see women for three decades coming out of law school in 50% of their classes, they don't stay. They don't stay in the profession.

They start out. They get these great jobs. They're doing fantastic. Then, a lot of times—and it does coincide with oftentimes starting families—it really becomes too challenging. That is something that we need to really continue to work on.

As you mentioned, we are conducting a study out of Rutgers Law School right now on women in the profession—not just women in private practice—but we're looking at women in six different sectors: public interest and government and in-house and private and judiciary and legal academia, to really try to get at the root of the challenges that they're still facing all these years later.

It's really going to be an exciting report with recommendations once it gets published. But I think that, unfortunately, the systems and the structure that law firms really have been built upon, especially in the latter half of the 20th century, really make it difficult for anybody who's seeking flexibility to be successful.

Putting aside equal pay and compensation and issues that still go on in that respect—because it unquestionably does—women lawyers at the equity partner level, once they start coming up through the ranks, there are challenges there with equal pay.

But it really is this culture that prioritizes billing hours—billing more and more hours—also non-billable hours, whether it be for firm commitments, business development, all sorts of pressures that people have. When they're trying to balance family and other responsibilities, we do not have a lot of support for women.

Even if we go outside of the legal profession—just as a country in general—we don't have a lot of support for people that need accommodations. If it's a family leave-type issue and having a child, a lot of times, that is still by and far going to be the women in the profession.

So we see it improving somewhat. I think that the next generations of lawyers—certainly to some extent Gen X, but definitely Millennials and Gen Z—I think that the male counterparts are really looking to take advantage of flexibility in a way that maybe Gen X and certainly the Baby Boomers and Silent Generation were not as focused on. So I do think that we are going to see some improvements and some shifts there.

But I think that unless we get to a point where men are taking advantage of parental leave at the rate that women take leave when they have children, we're still going to always have some challenge around that time when there's a need for a leave. Because as we talked about in the beginning, it is often focused on "What have you done for me lately?" and "How many hours have you billed?"

If you're not around to bill for a whole year because you need to take time off to have a child, it is going to, in some firms—not all firms—be held against you. There are going to be penalties. Whether you call it the motherhood penalty or maternal wall or all the terms that are out there, it is unfortunately alive and well in law firms and in this day and age still.

So there's a lot of work that needs to be done in that space still, and improvements to be had, and also supports in place for women as they try to navigate these very challenging parts of life. Law firms, if they're smart, will do what they can to retain these women because their clients are going to benefit from having all those wonderful, diverse viewpoints.

If they just put a little bit of effort in and value people and not penalize them for things like continuing with our society, they'll be much better off and the profession will be much better off.

Elise Holtzman: What are some of the positive shifts and trends that you are seeing? I mean, you mentioned, obviously, that a lot more men are starting to focus on these issues. I know some of them now are taking parental leave. There is a penalty, and even a penalty for these men now taking parental leave. So it's interesting to see that shift. But I'm curious if I'm missing something. You're very focused on these issues. What are some of the positive shifts and trends that you're seeing?

Kirsten Branigan: Well, first of all, organizations like New Jersey Women Lawyers exist. Now we have this amazing network of women lawyers, and New Jersey's not alone. There are state organizations like this throughout the country. There's the ABA level. There's National Association of Women Lawyers. So there are lots of great networks of women—and men—because let's not forget about our male allies.

In fact, I will say that the funder of our study, our Women in Law Study at Rutgers, is a male attorney who's a very prominent partner at a law firm. He is the one who is single-handedly funding this project in addition to other projects, including a documentary about challenges that women face in the law. So the men in the profession are also impacted by challenges that the women lawyers have as well.

I think that we not only have these really great networks and we're celebrating women at our gala, you mentioned we have over 700 people. It's a signature event. Everybody who knows about it and has come once comes back. It's a great celebration of women in the judiciary, private sector, public sector. It really is just such a spotlight that was well needed to celebrate women that are doing amazing things and leaders in the profession.

I think the other shifts that are positive are that we are not always just tied to the billable hour. When we think back to the origins of the billable hour from the 1960s, even back then, the requirements are not what they are now. So they have gotten consistently higher and higher and higher.

I think that we're seeing clients push back on that model and request alternative fee arrangements. I think that is positive for a whole host of reasons. I think that that's a positive.

I think also the fact that mental health has really become a significant issue that has garnered a lot of attention in recent years is important. Because there's only so long that you can work thousands and thousands of hours a year and absorb the weight of your clients' problems and absorb the stress of your firm requirements and your employer requirements and not burn out, right?

So we really are in a mental health crisis in our profession, and it includes substance use, it includes mental health diseases and suicide. We really have to take care of our lawyers so that they can take care of their clients' problems and do so in the best and most ethical way possible.

There has been a lot of visibility on this issue at the national level. The ABA has done a study in 2017. New Jersey had a task force in recent years, in 2023, that issued a report. The statistics are alarming in terms of the amount of mental health issues that are out there as compared to the regular working population among lawyers. So it is a profession that is very vulnerable.

While we are often the strong advocates for our clients, oftentimes lawyers can be vulnerable to a lot of these issues and unfortunately don't put themselves first and then wind up burning out and winding up feeling hopeless and sometimes catastrophically do things like commit suicide.

So I think that the positive on that is that people are talking about it, and we're trying to remove the stigmas, and we're trying to really focus on this issue in a way that hadn't been done before.

Elise Holtzman: Just to be clear—and you and I know this because, as you say, we're Gen X and I'm a little more even Gen X than you, closer to Boomer than you are—I think people forget that this was not something that was discussed at all. If you had asked somebody about mental health or alcoholism or drug abuse in the legal profession, lawyers, lawyers were fine. "Lawyers don't have those problems."

We know, in fact, that that's not the case. So that is very much a positive. There are organizations that are driving change in this area. They're specifically focused on mental health, as you say, at the national and state level.

Kirsten Branigan: Also, I did want to mention, so I'm on the board of trustees for the New Jersey Lawyers Assistance Program, and many states have similar programs as well. It is a confidential resource for lawyers to use. It's part of your registration fees and the dues that you pay that you have access to this confidential resource.

It doesn't have to be—a lot of times people think of lawyers assistance as only alcohol or drug use. It includes mental health. It includes even if you're just overwhelmed and stressed, and maybe you're not even in treatment for depression or anxiety, but you just need help. You're just overwhelmed.

So New Jersey Lawyers Assistance Program is there to support you. It really is an issue when we talk about generational issues, because I know, Elise, you and I love talking about generational issues, especially in the legal profession. When we think about Gen Z—talk about alarming rates—the increases in mental health challenges and suicide for Gen Z compared to any other generation that has come before is stark and scary.

It is something that employers are really going to have to focus on and accommodate. The good thing—I mean, it's not good that they have as much increase in this space as they do. But the good thing is they talk about it and they will ask, and they are asking employers on what will you do for mental health, and all of these things.

So I think that the good news—and I tie it in as a positive, even though it's an unfortunate, and we could talk forever about why Gen Z has such significant increases in mental health, but that's probably a whole other podcast episode—but I think that the employers, if they want to be competitive, really looking—whether it's the Millennial generation or Gen Z—both those generations are really focused on flexibility and will even forego compensation to have more time off, to have mental health self-care.

So that's the end. As we know, the birth rates have gone down significantly, and there are going to be less workers and less lawyers. So law firms that want to be competitive are really going to have to lean into these areas. I think that's a positive for our profession.

Elise Holtzman: One of the things that you and I both see—because we've talked about this—is that in our generation, there's a lot of complaining about the generations that come after us. I always say this, that since the time of cave mom and cave dad, they looked at their cave kid and said, "The cave kid doesn't get it." The cave kid looked at cave mom and dad and said, "My God, they're just like these old fuddy-duddy sticks in the mud."

We know that there are generational differences. Always have, always will be. The gap seems to have grown dramatically, I think partly because of COVID and also because of this 24-hour news cycle. These kids—we'll call them kids, I guess, and sound like old ladies—they're on their devices all the time. They're hearing things globally. They're worried about the future, as many of us are, for a whole host of reasons.

So what happens is, understandably, our generation looks at them and says, "Well, they're lazy. They don't want to work as hard as we did. They don't care about being leaders. They don't care about being rainmakers. They're not going to step up. They just don't get it the way we, the perfect people that we are, have gotten it."

They look at us and say, "They've been sweeping mental health under the rug for all of these years. They don't care about flexibility. They've worked themselves into the ground. They're delaying gratification. So maybe when they retire at age 75 or 80, they'll get a couple of years to play shuffleboard or whatever," whatever they think we're doing.

So there's truth on both sides, right? But to your point, we can complain about it, or we can recognize the reality of the situation and approach it with more empathy and curiosity and understanding.

So what do you think are some of the things that we can do—all of us can do—regardless of age or stage, regardless of gender, regardless of what jurisdiction we're in? We're fortunate to have people from all over the country and Canada and a couple of other places in the world listening to this podcast. What can we as attorneys and folks who work in the legal profession do to help make the profession better for all lawyers, regardless of background?

Kirsten Branigan: Certainly in the climate that we're living in right now—and there are a lot of attacks on DEI—unfortunately, there are challenges of law firms and policies and certain things that are legitimate policies that are implemented to really help improve and avoid bias and discrimination. But now those policies and those efforts are being flipped around and spun around into arguments that... and again, that's a whole probably other podcast topic.

But I think that we can continue to lean into diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, and fostering respectful workplaces and making sure that mental health and well-being are prioritized.

I also think education is key. Lawyers are great at representing their clients and being in court and doing all these really, really complicated legal projects and matters. But when it comes to the basics of interacting with people and appreciating people's differences, there's a lot of a gap there.

We do a lot of training in the space of, yes, the basic harassment, discrimination prevention, which everybody should be doing and has to do under the law. But then next-level training like implicit bias and being aware of microaggressions and implicit bias and things that you might not really be aware of.

Working in a multi-generational workforce and how do we bridge those differences and lean into the parts of our generation that make us, yes, maybe different in how we communicate and operate in the workplace, but also it could be a very robust environment if we lean into and appreciate all those differences, and cultural awareness, and all of the things that really can make for... I'm an employment lawyer by trade. I've been an employment lawyer for 30 years. I see every day how workplaces break down when there is a lack of respect and civility. It can often turn into something that becomes an unlawful type of harassment and bias situation. But a lot of times it really is just toxic and abusive behavior that people are not mindful of.

I think that lawyers and law firms in particular do not lean into as robust of a training program as they should. I know that a lot has changed in our profession over the years. I mean, I can remember a time when partners screamed and made people cry and threw staplers at people. Now here we're on the other end of the spectrum where maybe some would argue you have to tiptoe around and be too delicate and everybody gets upset over everything and people are too thin-skinned. There's a continuum there.

But I will say, I mean, in defense of Gen Z—because I know that’s something that we've talked about and something that Gen Xers and other generations will say, rolling their eyes, "Oh, this generation needs trigger warnings before we talk about something difficult, and they don't have thick skin"—I have to tell you, I cannot imagine going to school and growing up in a time of active shooter drills and having to go in a closet or under a desk because you have to be prepared for people to come in and potentially shoot the children in your school.

I really have a lot of empathy for them. I know people, I’ve heard people, say things and roll their eyes and say, "Oh good Lord, they need trigger warnings." But you know what? If they want to feel safe in places like work because of how they had to grow up, shame on us for not having empathy.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah, well, that goes back to the education that you mentioned, Kirsten. That’s one of the reasons I’m so passionate about the idea of workplace training on generational differences, because I think that there’s a lot that we can learn.

Once we understand what each generation has gone through, we start to understand a lot more about why they behave the way they do. I think that we’re very good at the stereotypes, and we’re not very good at understanding because no one’s bothered teaching it to us.

I mean, I’ve seen the light bulb go on for people of every generation when we start talking about, "Well, this is what this generation went through. These are the events that happened in their lifetime. This is why their generation typically tends to—obviously not everyone’s the same—but tends to think the way they do."

People go, "Oh my gosh, like I had no idea." So I think, to your point, that all of this education is really important. I think that, as I mentioned before, the curiosity and the empathy is very helpful.

So as we wrap up our time together today, I want to ask you a question that I ask all my guests at the end of the show. Of course, you’re very familiar with it because you are a very loyal listener.

There’s a phenomenon called the curse of knowledge, where experts sometimes forget that what is so obvious and natural to them is not at all obvious to others. When it comes to making a difference—and perhaps making a difference in the legal profession—what is a principle or piece of advice that may seem obvious to you, but based on your experience, sticking to your guns and sticking to your mission is important for people to hear?

Kirsten Branigan: So I have heard this question on your podcast so many times, and I so love all of the tips and the feedback that people give. So I’ve really tried to give this a little bit of thought.

I would say there are probably two. They are intertwined. One is, if you really want to impact change, you need to build an army. I had a law school professor tell me that, and it really stuck with me. When you think about all the changes in history and time and all the civil rights movement... I think about even with the New Jersey Women Lawyers revitalization, we built this army of women lawyers, and we really impacted change. So I just build little armies everywhere I go. So build an army.

Also, like that movie Field of Dreams, "If you build it, they will come." I really feel like for both the New Jersey Women Lawyers Association and my firm—because I see them as very intertwined—I really wanted that refuge for women. I brought women back in the profession that had opted out for years and are back practicing and thriving.

I think if you really set out on a mission and you want to impact change, you have to remind yourself of it often. Build that army, lean into it. If you build it, they will come.

I’m just so happy that 20 years later, our firm is thriving and it is a refuge for women trying to come back into the profession. And not only women, but there are not a lot of law firms that are willing to open their arms to people that have not practiced in years.

We need to, I think, see that change because we’ve got smart women, capable women lawyers that are well-trained, well-educated, that would gladly come back to work in the legal profession if they felt that firms would welcome them. So I really urge law firms to commit to that and lean into that.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah, I love this advice. I love "build an army." I love reminding yourself of your mission, right? Sticking to it. It’s so easy to forget. We’re all so busy.

Whatever your mission is, for some people, it’s not going to be the issue of women in the profession or making the profession a better place, it’s some other mission that you have in mind.

So whatever your vision is, whatever your mission is, this is really good advice. So thank you so much for being here. It’s such a pleasure to have you and to talk to you, as always.

I’m going to thank our listeners as well for tuning in. If you’ve enjoyed today’s show, please subscribe, rate, and review us at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. In the meantime, be bold, take action, and make things happen. We’ll see you next time.