Leslie Davis | How Minority and Women-Owned Firms Are Winning Corporate Work

Elise Holtzman: Hi, everyone. It's Elise Holtzman here, a former practicing lawyer and the host of The Lawyer’s Edge Podcast. Welcome back for another episode. Minority and women-owned law firms have been fighting for a seat at the corporate table for decades, not because of lack of talent or capability, but because the connections and relationships that drive outside counsel decisions have historically favored the familiar. Today's guest leads an organization that has been working to change that equation for more than 20 years, connecting preeminent diverse firms with corporations that are hiring outside counsel. In today's episode, we're going to talk about what it actually takes for minority and women-owned firms to compete for and win corporate work and what the current climate means for that mission.

Before we dive in, today's episode is brought to you by the coaching team at The Lawyer's Edge, a training and coaching firm, which has been focused exclusively on lawyers and law firms since 2008. Each member of The Lawyer's Edge coaching team is a trained, certified, and experienced professional coach and either a former practicing attorney, or a former law firm marketing and business development professional. Whatever your professional objectives, our coaches can help you achieve your goals more quickly, more easily and with significantly less stress. To get connected with your coach, just email the team at hello@thelawyersedge.com.

I'm delighted to welcome my guest today, Leslie Davis. Leslie is the CEO of NAMWOLF, the National Association of Minority and Women-Owned Law Firms, a non-profit trade association, dedicated to connecting preeminent minority and women-owned law firms with corporations and public entities hiring outside counsel. Founded in 2001, NAMWOLF now counts more than 190 carefully vetted member firms across 43 states and its inclusion initiative has generated a combined average of more than $200 million annually in work for diverse firms since 2012. Before taking the helm at NAMWOLF in 2021, Leslie spent 25 years as a trial lawyer and rainmaker, making partner at three different firms and trying complex commercial cases from start to finish. She's also a certified transformational leadership coach. Leslie, welcome to The Lawyer’s Edge.

Leslie Davis: Thank you for having me.

Elise Holtzman: I'm so excited to have you, because I've had the pleasure of doing a little bit of work with NAMWOLF. I was able to come to one of your conferences and I am among a small group of coaches who work with lawyers on a regular basis, working to help some of the members succeed. So for listeners who may not know anything or much about NAMWOLF, tell us a little bit about the organization. What is it? Whom is it serving? And what is it working to accomplish?

Leslie Davis: So NAMWOLF, the National Association of Minority and Women-Owned Law Firms, is really just an organization that is, who has a mission of ensuring that minority and women-owned law firms are engaged, are utilized by everybody, by companies, both big and small, by agencies, by whoever needs legal services. And so that's its mission. And who does it serve? It really serves everybody. The whole reason that NAMWOLF exists is just to make sure that folks are being connected with all the players in the legal field that need legal services. And so it arose from a need to ensure that everybody was being included as legal service providers. And so that's what our North Star is, that's what we do every day.

Elise Holtzman: I noticed in the small amount of time that I've been a little bit involved with the organization that the people in the organization and you, at the helm, are really people connectors, as you say, right? Always connecting law firms with one another, connecting in-house corporate counsel with the law firms. I found that people inside the organization are unbelievably generous with referrals and connections. And look, as somebody who cares deeply about business development, because that's a lot of the work that I do, it's really wonderful to see that inside of an organization. It's almost as if the philosophy is and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that, you know, a rising tide lifts all ships.

Leslie Davis: Absolutely. That really is our philosophy. And another part of our philosophy is that we are not competing with each other. There is more than enough legal work for everybody, right? And so if your real goal is to service clients, in the best possible ways with the best talent and have the best value add, then when you recognize that there is another firm, or another lawyer who can service a client better, then you're happy to connect them with those folks. And then they're happy to do the same for you. And so that I think is really the… some of the secret sauce of NAMWOLF, that the folks within NAMWOLF are confident enough and self-confident enough to recognize that we are not crabs in a barrel, all trying to claw our way to the top and step on whoever we need to, in order to get there. It's really more of a community, of a family, if you will, where we really want to make sure that everybody is doing well and that for the most part, everybody is able to rely on one another and that the folks who utilize NAMWOLF and the companies that engage NAMWOLF firms, know that as well, that that is our philosophy and that they can be assured that they are going to be getting the best service that is possible, because we take it very seriously that we are providing that kind of service for all of the corporations and others who are involved in NAMWOLF.

Elise Holtzman: I know that one of the things that you do as an organization is you do a lot of vetting of the member organizations, before they can become members. So while it's a very inclusive organization, in terms of the types of lawyers that can be involved and the backgrounds from which they come, you do a lot of vetting, to make sure, to your earlier point, that you're getting people who are really service oriented and you're getting kind of the cream of the crop. What are some of the characteristics that you look at, in a law firm, or other organization, before it has the privilege of being able to say we're a NAMWOLF member?

Leslie Davis: Well, we want to make sure that our firms are highly vetted, that they have recommendations from Fortune 500 companies. And the reason for that is that we want to make sure that they are well-versed in doing sophisticated legal work and that they have enough people to do the work and that they have a track record of having done great work. And so we value the recommendations we get from folks who have worked with our prospective law firms. We also have an internal process where we have a whole admissions committee, where we ask other lawyers, other folks, other people in NAMWOLF, anybody we know, what the reputation of those firms are and of those lawyers, to make sure that they really are a value add for anybody who would be seeking to utilize that law firm. And so that's really important to us. Our firms are responsive, they are reliable, they are dedicated and oftentimes they present a price point that is oftentimes more reasonable than some of the biggest or largest firms, because they just have a different model, a different business model. And so they're a little more flexible and can do things a little bit differently. They can have sliding scales or different rates and things like that, because they just do business in a different way. And so those are some of the things that make NAMWOLF firms preferred by lots of people. Just not to mention the expertise and the depth of expertise. Many of the lawyers have come from large law firms, or come from in-house or have extensive government backgrounds. And so they have done a lot of great legal work in their careers. And so they really are a value add, in many ways, for anybody who is seeking to get legal help.

Elise Holtzman: I'm also interested in talking about how you make this happen. So you're not just running an organization of law firms, right, where the law firms all get together and talk about how they can do this. You're actually involving the companies and the outside counsel themselves. So what does that look like and how do you think that makes you different from some of the other organizations out there?

Leslie Davis: Well, how we do it is, we have two meetings a year, where we ensure that everybody who is involved in NAMWOLF knows where we're going to be meeting, what that's going to look like. We provide CLEs, continuing legal education and opportunities for people to meet and to get to know each other and to understand what the backgrounds are of the lawyers and what cases they have handled and what their expertise is. And so we do that mainly through our meetings, because we have found that getting together kind of face-to-face and being able to spend time together, getting to know people. Relationships are where it's at, right? And so when you are building a relationship, it's not just based upon some esoteric checkbox credential. It's based upon actually getting to know the lawyers, getting to know the firm, understanding what their values are, understanding what their expertise is and knowing that you can be comfortable that when it's time to handle an issue, that they have the discernment and the experience to be able to do that in a way that's going to add value for your company. And it's going to hopefully ultimately mean that you are successful in whatever that issue is that has come up. And so that's really, I think, an important part of NAMWOLF. It's not just an organization that gets together, just to be together and tout itself. It's really to be of service, of service to clients who need legal help, of service to each other, to make sure that others are aware that they have folks that they can depend on and look to and ask questions of and collaborate with. So it's very meaningful and this year we've done something even more expansive. Many of our firms on their own, do a lot of public service and a lot of pro bono work and things like that. But in honor of our 25th anniversary, we've expanded that a little bit. And we had a whole month of service where NAMWOLF firms and companies just came together to just do good, to offer service, not legal service. Well, some did legal service, but service of varieties of types to the communities, where we live, where we reside, where we work. And that has been just fulfilling in a whole new way.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah, well, there's nothing like rolling up your sleeves together, right, to get something accomplished, to connect people.

Leslie Davis: Right.

Elise Holtzman: To your point, relationships are the number one issue. And so what I'm hearing is that you're just giving people an opportunity to come together and to get to know each other. It's not the same as just reading someone's bio on their website. Not that that's a bad thing. It's good to have your bio on your website and you need that. But this is something that's more powerful than that. I wanted to ask you, Leslie, about your background, because you spent 25 years as a trial lawyer and rainmaker before becoming CEO of NAMWOLF. What made you leave that career to take this role? How did this even come to pass?

Leslie Davis: I enjoyed being a trial lawyer. I enjoyed practicing law. It was very fulfilling to me. But I consider myself somewhat of a trial hound. I love trying cases. And as anybody who's following the courts recognizes, that a lot of these cases, a lot of these big corporate cases, they don't get tried anymore. Many, many, the vast majority of them settle, for reasons we're not going to go into now, because that's a whole different podcast, right? But I found myself doing less and less actual trial work, because as you get more senior, the level of exposure is so much greater that the people making the decisions in-house and otherwise, just are less willing to kind of roll the dice, with a set of 12 jurors in a box. And so I found myself doing less trial work than I had been doing in the past. And that was the part I loved the most. So when this opportunity came up, I had a few people call me and say, hey, you know, Joel Sturm's retiring. You should really think about this. I think you would be great at it. And I, quite frankly, had not really ever thought of doing anything else, other than trial work and practicing law. But again, as I told you, I was doing less and less of that and more of just litigating to a settlement end. And it wasn't as fulfilling. And so I said, you know what? Maybe I should look into it. And I did. And I'm glad that I did. And it turns out it is a great fit. And I am totally enjoying it. And I'm so grateful to those folks who reached out to say, hey, you should put your hat in the ring.

Elise Holtzman: I think we can probably agree that your background as a litigator and as a rainmaker is pretty unusual preparation for running a nonprofit trade association. It's not necessarily the usual path. So where do you think that your background as a lawyer and as a trial lawyer has served you well? And where have you had to learn something entirely new, where you really had to challenge yourself and maybe what you thought you were capable of?

Leslie Davis: So I'm going to disagree with you just a little bit, because really for NAMWOLF, since it is a legal trade organization, the folks who have been leading NAMWOLF, even the gentlemen who started NAMWOLF, were lawyers. There's not been a CEO who's not a lawyer. And most of us have litigation backgrounds. And so to that end, it's a great, I think, background for this particular nonprofit. I would agree with you, though, that for most nonprofits and maybe even other trade organizations, it's not necessarily the predictable path. But for this, it's perfect. Because what you're really doing is you are just shifting from marketing yourself, your legal expertise and your firm's legal expertise to a broader network. So in fact, it's kind of the best of this, because I get to do all the same rainmaking, all the same connecting, all of the same marketing and all the things that I did like in private practice, but I don't have to do the legal work. So I get to basically do the good part. And then if I'm successful and folks are connected and they get legal work, then they get to do the work and they get to stay up all night and handle the cases and handle the calls and get the good, the bad and the ugly and all that in between. And I'm off to the next, where I am making that connection. So in some respects, I think it is the absolute best background

Elise Holtzman: Well, I'm laughing because I'm just… I'm laughing, because it's so funny to watch you get so excited about the idea of the rain making and being able to promote other people and the organization and all of that. It's like your whole demeanor almost changes when you talk about it. So I can tell that you just love it.

Leslie Davis: I do. I absolutely love that part of it. And I love the part that then when I do it, I get to say, OK, hope that case goes well. Go forth and be great and then I can move on to the next thing. So truly, I do enjoy that part of it. And when people say, well, do you miss practicing law? I don't. I miss trying cases. I don't miss the practice of law. Now, if there was a way for me to just parachute in, you know and just try cases and just try cases and just try cases, I'm sure that might even get old at some point. But no, that's the part I miss and that was the part I was doing the least, toward the end of my practicing. And so, no, this is great and I love this part. What did I have to learn? Now, this is going to sound a little egocentric, but the truth of the matter is, is my whole career, I've always worked with lawyers. Always. There were lawyers who were part of my team. There were lawyers who I was mentoring. There were lawyers who were mentoring me. There were lawyers who were training me and I was training lawyers. That had been kind of my whole life, really. And so coming to NAMWOLF, I was not working with a team of lawyers. I was working with a team of highly skilled professionals, but not lawyers. And so it was a bit of a challenge, because I think that many times, when you have kind of a one track narrow way of working and it works for you, then you haven't had to consider the ways, in which other people do their work and the way they show up and the way that they think and the ideas that they have. Because lawyers, I think we tend to kind of think a lot alike, in the sense that we can finish each other's sentences and we have been trained to problem solve. And so there's just a way that you do it and a routine and a cadence that's very comfortable, that is a little different when you're not dealing with lawyers. That, I think, was my biggest challenge to recognize that there were ways of doing things that were very different from what I had, even down to just being willing to just sit and listen. Because as a person who billed time my whole career, for 25 years, you're billing time. If somebody is expressing themselves and it's taken a long time, my heart is palpitating. Because I'm like, that's .25, that's .50, oh my God, that's 1.0, we are not going to be able to bill for this. And so it just took time to recognize that the whole world is not running off of a billable hour clock. And sometimes you have to allow the space and time for collaboration and thinking and discussion and teaching and learning. And that was very different for me. And that was the thing that I think was the hardest part of this transition.

Elise Holtzman: I think so many people listening to this, can really understand that, because we're so driven to execution as lawyers. You know, there's stuff that has to get done and the bills have to get out and we have to be efficient and someone's expecting the email, or someone's expecting the brief, or whatever it may be. And so being open minded enough to know that about yourself and sit with that and do something that probably in the beginning felt kind of uncomfortable.

Leslie Davis: Sure.

Elise Holtzman: I think it is really an important leadership lesson. Let's talk more about what's going on with NAMWOLF and in general outside counsel hiring today. Obviously, you're now leading NAMWOLF through a period when corporate commitment to outside counsel diversity has changed significantly. For years, there was a huge drive to make that happen. There were a lot of organizations that were talking about how important this sort of thing was, the values that were important to them. What are you actually seeing on the ground these days, in terms of whether some of the gains that were made, have been rolled back, or whether things continue to move in the right direction? What are you seeing? And how is NAMWOLF responding or adapting to some of those current realities?

Leslie Davis: What I would say is, obviously, there have been lots of changes. And there is a lot of rhetoric and conversation around what is legal and illegal and what diversity, equity and inclusion means and all of that. And so what we've decided, what I've decided to do as leader of the organization, is to just put all that in its rightful place, which is on a shelf, where it really belonged in the first place. What do I mean by that? We were always talking about the value add and the expertise and the quality of the work product and the strength and resilience of the lawyers and the way in which they could shepherd the work through, in a way that was great and a value add. And because DEI was popular, we also talked about those things, too, because, like, I'm a black woman and so I'm happy to talk to you about my perspective as a black woman. But our firms and our lawyers were always so much more than that, so much more than that. Because I could talk to you this whole podcast and more about all kinds of legal issues and all kinds of things and never even talk about my gender or ethnicity. And so now that there are those who have tried to make gender and ethnicity a bad word, or tried to make it a negative, I just don't talk about it anymore, because I don't have to. Because our lawyers, our law firms, all the people in them, who by the way are not all diverse, are great. They were always great. They're still great. They're going to be great. And so for those who've decided that they don't want to engage in conversation about DEI, that's fine. There's lots of things I don't like to talk about and don't have to talk about. So I just don't, because I see it as a distraction anyway. And so for those who want to make that into a really big deal and try to make people feel like they are engaged in something illegal if they care about it, then just don't care about it. Care about getting your work done with excellent folks who have been tried and tested and who have always been great at what they do. And so, you know, when the next cycle comes, where people care again about talking about stuff, then we'll talk about that too. I just don't allow myself to get distracted or dismayed by what I call the hecklers, because you will always have those. They are never going to go away. Sometimes they're louder than other times, but they're always there, because as long as I've been practicing law, there's always been those who wanted to discredit or somehow suggest that if you are a woman, or you are a minority, or you're young, or you are whatever, you didn't go to this law school, or that law school, or whatever it was, that somehow you're not as good as somebody else. There's always going to be something. Right? And so now the something is, well, if you care about diversity, equity and inclusion, somehow you are acting in an illegal way. Okay. Say what you will. But that doesn't distract me from the fact that our lawyers are great, our firms are great, the people are great. They're always going to be great. Whether you look at their added value of diversity, gender, sexual orientation, or whatever else makes them have a different perspective and a broader perspective of the universe.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah, it's like there's a North Star there and you're not getting distracted by bright, shiny objects, whatever they may be.

Leslie Davis: Correct. Because there's always a bright, shiny object. As long as I have been practicing, as long as I've been a black woman, there's always been a bright, shiny object to distract from the truth about whatever you really are. And so I just, I long ago, way before the last 10 years, have decided that I don't let myself be distracted by those things.

Elise Holtzman: I love this, because I think it's such a great thing for everyone to remember, regardless of whether you're talking about someone who could fit into a category of diversity or not. There's so much in this world to distract us from what we care about and what our values are and what we're committed to. And so for me, at least today, that's going to be a huge takeaway, just a reminder, stay the course, you know, stay the course. And that's hard. That's hard in day to day life. And it's hard with a 24 hour news cycle that sometimes lately seems to be full of nothing but negativity. And so, you know, if you can hold that space and that North Star for everyone in your organization and we can do that for some other people who are listening, I think that that would be something that you accomplished today for for folks.

Leslie Davis: That's what we try to do. I mean, that's what we do every day. And that's what I have personally tried to do in my career, in my life, with my family, as well as my friends. Because, you know, I count it all joy. There's always going to be something that distracts you. But those distractions and those things, they make a perfect work in you. And you then come out shining. You come out stronger.

Elise Holtzman: I also think that there are many people who would say, you know, you don't understand. I can't do that. It's too hard. And I think what I know as a coach and what you know as somebody who's also certified as a coach and is running an organization of this magnitude is that it really comes down to making a choice.

Leslie Davis: A choice, absolutely.

Elise Holtzman: About how you want to live and what you're willing to let affect you.

Leslie Davis: And it's from the big to the little, right? It's not all about the legal framework. Everybody who knows me, knows that Monday is my favorite day of the week, period, point blank. I am my best self on Mondays. That's why we're having this conversation on a Monday, because when we scheduled it, my team knows Monday is my day for stuff like this, right? For great conversations and all of those kinds of things. And that is a choice that I made a long time ago, because I was tired of waking up every Monday saying, oh my God, the weekend was short. Oh my God, I can't wait until the weekend again. And you wish your whole life away, because you decided that somehow Monday is like a bad day. And so many, many years ago, I decided Monday is actually a great day, because you get to start afresh. It might be the best week of your life. You don't know. It really might be. And so if you start Monday at the highest level, let's see what's going to happen, instead of dreading it. And when I started doing that, it really transformed really my life, my whole week and the way I look at it, truthfully. And so it was just a choice. Like you said, it was a choice to not wish my whole life away. Because if you're lucky, you know, I don't know the math. How many Mondays do you get if you live to be X years old? And there's seven days out of the week I'm only going to like Friday and Saturday. And every other day I'm going to, you know, wish that it was Friday or Saturday. That's ridiculous. And so I think about that, that's like a small thing in some respects. But I think about that in the way that I really confront all things that tend to just try to take over your psyche and decide for you that this is the way you are and the way you're going to be and that. And you're right, with the news and the constant inputs that we get from other people and social media and all that. You have to make constant decisions about what you are going to let in and how you're going to let it run you or not.

Elise Holtzman: And I do think that so many lawyers are so busy and they're working so hard and they're running around with their hair on fire and they don't have the time or take the time to sit down and make these sorts of choices that instead of feeling like they're running their practices, let's say they feel like their practice is running them. And you and I talk to people who are in that situation all the time. Leslie, as we wrap up our time here together, there's a question that I ask all of my guests at the end of the show. There's a phenomenon called the curse of knowledge, where experts sometimes forget that what is so obvious and natural to them, is not at all obvious to others. When it comes to building the kind of relationships that actually open doors for minority and women-owned law firms, what's a principle, or piece of advice that may seem obvious to you, but is really important for others to hear?

Leslie Davis: So this is going to sound cliche and I wish I had something to say that was much more avant-garde. But the truth of the matter is, the folks that I see, that are the biggest rainmakers, that have the most satisfying practices, are the ones who really take time to build relationships. Real relationships, not just the perfunctory, performative, you know, here's an email every Monday, or here's an email here and there or, you know, here's, you know, an article you might like, or things like that. That's a little bit of it. But I mean real relationships, where you really lean in to know something about a person and you find what those common ground kind of things are for you and you build upon those things. And it's not fake or phony if it's really real to you, if it's something you really enjoy and are interested in, too. And so when I was business developing, I loved going to plays and I would sometimes ask people to join me for that. When I had small kids and other people had small kids and there were things that I liked to do with them and I would say, hey, we're going here, going there, you want to go? If there were specific things that came across my desk that I thought that they would be interested in, I would let them know. I was mentoring somebody many, many years ago, who's now a very successful rain-making lawyer. And I was telling her that I was growing mint, because I was making mojitos that summer. I had decided that that was my thing that summer. And she was a law student at the time. And when she got back to school, she sent me like a mojito kit, it probably cost her 20 bucks at the time. But it was so wonderful that she remembered that I used the kid and then I thought about her. And then when she came to Chicago to practice, we continued to build our relationship. And now I'm the godmother to her children. I mean, from a mojito kit. It was just she listened, she heard. So the little mojito I was growing in the ground, built a whole relationship, just because she listened and cared to say, oh, I saw this kit, you like, you doing that, hey, how about it? And so it's not all about the price. You have to buy people's interest. But it's about really leaning in in truly meaningful ways, because that is being lost as an art. Maybe not amongst our generation, but I have young adult children and it worries me a lot that I don't know that they know how to really listen and be thoughtful about how to meaningfully build relationships. Because, and this is Leslie speaking for Leslie, I don't find having a lot of followers as meaningful relationship building. I don't find liking other people's stuff on social media as building relationship. Some people will disagree with me. This is how I feel, that for me, I actually don't even pay attention to who, I barely post. And when I do, it's because my team is making me. And I certainly don't go back to look to see who liked it, because I don't care who liked it or who didn't. And I just, I find that to be an artificial way of trying to build relationship, because when all those things fall away, you really still don't know really anything about the person and you haven't really connected with them. All they know is that you liked what they said, or you saw it or you didn't. And so I just think that that's being lost. And so the folks who do it the best, are the ones who really, I think, try hard to figure out what's the common ground. As we're talking, I'm looking across my office at a set of fabric flowers that was given to me by a lawyer in one of the NAMWOLF firms. I was at her office and saw her fabric flowers and I really, really liked them. And I just thought they were so awesome. When I left, I thought nothing of them anymore. I was like, that's nice. Fast forward, maybe it's a year later. For my birthday, she was like, I thought about you. I was at the place where I got mine from, thought about you and now I'm looking at three fabric flowers that every time I look at those flowers, I think of her. It's just those things.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah, such great examples. And it sort of reminds me of what we were talking about before this idea of the North Star. Like, even with all the distractions of social media and LinkedIn and all of the things and influencers and Instagram and likes and followers and all of that sort of thing, what I'm hearing you talk about is the through thread of genuine, authentic relationships. And these two people, you know, the mojito kit and the fabric flowers, I mean, these people made you feel like a million bucks and also gave you a window into what kind of person that person is, right? And so I think this is just such great advice for people to remember. Thank you so much for being here today. It was a pleasure having you and hearing your perspective on all of these really important issues.

Leslie Davis: Well, thank you so much, Elise, for having me and for giving me the ability to talk to you and to share with your audience some of my nuggets, my prose of wisdom, at least those that I think are worth sharing. And thank you for doing this. It's always great to have an opportunity to connect.

I'm going to thank our listeners for tuning in as well. If you've enjoyed today's show, please subscribe, rate and review us at Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast app.

In the meantime, be bold, take action and make things happen.

We'll see you next time.