Lisa Sawyer Derman | Legal Spirits: How One Lawyer Turned a Legal Career into a Bourbon Brand

Elise Holtzman: Hi, everyone. It's Elise Holtzman here, a former practicing lawyer and the host of the Lawyer's Edge podcast. Welcome back for another episode. Have you ever thought about walking away from law to do something bold, unexpected, or completely your own? Many lawyers do imagine it, but today's guest actually did it.

After a successful career as an in-house lawyer and Global Spirits executive, she launched a bourbon company that's shaking up a traditional industry. You're going to hear how she built a brand from the ground up, the lessons she's carried over from corporate life, and what lawyers can learn from her approach to risk-taking, reinvention, and building something that's entirely her own.

Before we dive in, today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a nine-month business development program created by women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers and supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. To learn more about Ignite, visit thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

So now I am delighted to welcome today's guest, Lisa Derman, who is the founder and CEO of Five Springs Infused Bourbon. A former lawyer and senior executive in the Global Spirits industry, Lisa spent more than 30 years building, leading, and growing some of the world's top alcohol brands, including serving as COO at Stoli Group, the head of legal at Absolut, and the head of the North Division at The Macallan. Drawing on her legal background and business leadership experience, she launched Five Springs in 2024, a bourbon brand designed to make the spirit more approachable and inclusive, and they've got three distinctive expressions, vanilla maple, honey sage, and blood orange. I am so excited to hear about how all of this came to pass. So Lisa, welcome to The Lawyer's Edge.

Lisa Sawyer Derman: Thank you, Elise. It is such a pleasure to be on this program. I'm excited to do a deep dive into my journey and how I got here.

Elise Holtzman: I am too. You and I were talking before we started recording. I mean, you and I've known each other a very long time, mostly through our daughters, who were very good friends when they were little and are off out of the house doing amazing things. So it really is just nice to hear about your story. I think everybody's going to really enjoy listening. So let's go back to the beginning and just start with your legal career. What made you decide to go into law in the first place?

Lisa Sawyer Derman: Like many attorneys, I was at a stage where I was graduating from college and didn't know what I wanted to do. I was actually a math major in college. Should have stuck with the tech route, maybe, but didn't know what I wanted to do. Took a year off, decided I was either going to med school or law school. Someone said, "You cannot go to med school if you haven't always wanted to be a doctor." So I decided to go to law school.

I would say that I struggled a little bit in the beginning with law school because it just wasn't the way my mind worked. I was fortunate enough after my first year of law, I got a summer associate position with McDermott, Will & Emery, and happened to be at a summer outing with some partners. This partner, T. Raymond Williams, was from Alabama. I was from Kentucky. I was in D.C. I was at this kind of McDermott Will. It's like big corporate law. I was a little bit stuffy. I felt a little bit out of place. This Alabama partner shows up at this summer outing. He's in Hawaiian shirt and shorts. Everyone else is in their khakis and button-downs. I was like, "Oh my God, that guy is fun. I need to know him. I need to work with him."

Then it's time for all of the summer associates to come in and start eating dinner buffet. They were trying to get everyone's attention and they couldn't. I happened to know how to whistle with my fingers. So I did a big whistle and got everyone's attention. T. Raymond looked at me and he said, "I want to work with her."

He was an alcohol beverage lawyer. We started working together. He had just moved over to McDermott, Will & Emery, and he was the preeminent alcohol beverage lawyer in the country, one of only five. He was starting this practice at McDermott. I was a summer associate after my first year and started doing alcohol beverage law and just really enjoyed it. Being someone who didn't know what I wanted to do in law and finding something immediately that was working with consumer good products and I loved the regulatory. There are tons of tax. So that's how I got started in this industry.

Elise Holtzman: That's a crazy story. I mean, literally from the first day you started even practicing law as a summer associate, if you can call it practicing law, you just fell into it, and you've been doing it ever since.

Lisa Sawyer Derman: Yeah. I've been doing it ever since, although I did, so I did that my first summer. Then my second summer, I really liked tax and corporate. So my second summer, I wanted to go somewhere else. I went to a boutique corporate firm, did tax. Then when it came time after when you get your offers, it was go to McDermott, Will & Emery. There was no guarantee that I could work. So I don't know if that's changed. I am curious if that's changed because when we came out of law school, you just went and worked for the firm. Then sometimes you would rotate through the different areas.

I was like, "I do not want to do litigation. I only want to do alcohol beverage law or corporate or tax." They wouldn't at the time guarantee that I would be in one of those areas. So I went to the corporate firm and did tax law for a year, did estate planning, did corporate, did international tax. It was a smaller boutique firm. Then T. Raymond came and he said, "Okay, now that you've been out for a year, I can hire you as an associate specifically for my practice. Do you want to do it?"

And I actually remember sitting at dinner with my mother, my mother-in-law, who is also an attorney. She had done tax law. I said, "I have this opportunity to be specialized. I really loved it. But I'm so young. I mean, I'm a year out. Do I really want to commit to one area so soon?" And she said, "Do you want to do estate planning or do you want to do alcohol beverage law?" And I was like, "Okay, yeah, I'll do it. I'm going to do it." So I made the switch and that was it. I never look back.

Elise Holtzman: It sounds like some of the roles that you had in-house, once you went in-house, some of them were legal and some of them were more on the operations side. I think that there are a lot of lawyers who would like to be able to make that switch from the legal side to the business side. So how did that come to pass?

Lisa Sawyer Derman: I remember learning exactly what that phrase lean in means at this point. So specialized, worked at big firms, specialized in alcohol beverage law, had an opportunity to go in-house as general counsel to Absolut, and very much enjoyed that. But realized that I enjoyed doing the deals. So when Absolut was sold to Pernod Ricard, I went to Proximo, which is Cuervo Tequila. They were just starting their company in the U.S. They were buying up a lot of brands.

It was one of those opportunities where I was the attorney on the deals, but there wasn't necessarily a lead finance person or a lead project manager. I just decided that I was going to lean in at that moment and learn all the finance aspects of it and try to lead the project in buying these smaller brands. That set me on a path to do more M&A work and do more corporate work. I really enjoyed that.

Then every opportunity that I got, I tried to make sure that I was at the table or make sure that I was part of the deal to be able to do more of the business transactions versus the general counsel, HR, employment, which I enjoyed, but I just always enjoyed the business side more.

Elise Holtzman: So you moved through a variety of roles in the beverage industry for 30 years. Talk to me a little bit about Five Springs Bourbon. Where did this come from? Had you been thinking about it for a long time?

Lisa Sawyer Derman: I've probably been thinking about it for the last 15 years because just in my various roles. So just then after I was general counsel at Proximo and then I became COO at Stoli and again, buying up brands. Along the way, I was always meeting the entrepreneurs who were building these brands. I love their stories. I was just so impressed with these risk takers and such different backgrounds.

So when I was at Proximo, we bought Stranahan's Colorado whiskey, but he was a fireman. When I was at Stoli, we looked at High West Rye. He was a chemist. So it was like all these different personalities and passions. All of these brands started with a passion like someone making something in their back garage or back room. I always admired them and always loved the creative aspect of the branding and the marketing and where they got their inspiration from.

So it was always something in the back of my mind about being part of building a brand. I don't think I necessarily thought about having my own until after I worked with some incredible women founders. I had the opportunity from Stoli to work with two women founders who were launching a Mezcal brand. They brought me on as CEO and I worked with them, two women artists passionate about Mezcal.

They lived in Oaxaca. They were from the U.S. They had lived on a commune, basically. Again, just going through that experience with them. Then there was another opportunity. I recently worked with tequila, these incredible women founders who are also passionate about tequila. At some point I was like, "You know what? I've seen these brands be built by people. I know all the aspects of it. Kids were out of college and I just decided now's my opportunity to do this."

Elise Holtzman: You mentioned a couple of things that made me want to ask this question, and I think you might have partly answered them, but let's dive in a little bit. So we know that many, many lawyers, I say this all the time, we self-select into law school and most lawyers, not all certainly, but most lawyers tend not to be risk takers. We tend to color inside the lines for the most part. So at first I was thinking, well, what about the risk here?

And yet, as you said, your kids are out of the house and you had the opportunity to watch other people do it. Because I sometimes think to myself, "Oh my gosh, starting a bourbon company. What does that even look like? How do you do that? What are the steps you need to take?"

I mean, I was involved in an entrepreneur's accelerator, and this guy came in and talked to us about starting a vodka brand. He and his partner were literally walking up and down the streets in Manhattan, going into bars, and trying to sell this stuff. I thought, "My gosh, this guy is not messing around. He's really starting at the ground floor." So tell me a little bit about that thought process and about the risk, or whether it just at this point didn't really feel like a terrible risk to you.

Lisa Sawyer Derman: Oh, it's interesting that you said that because I'm chuckling to myself. I'm walking up and down the streets with three bottles of bourbon in my bag and sampling people. In fact, I'm doing that right after this podcast today. But I do feel like I was able to short-circuit a lot of that initial startup because I had seen what you needed to do in the market.

Well, first of all, I did legal. Alcohol beverage is so highly regulated, which is why a lot of people find it difficult in the beginning because it's just so much—the three-tier system, you have to have a distributor, the licensing and the permitting, getting the labels approved and formulas approved. I had done all that. That aspect was not a risk for me. I was like, "I know how to do this. I don't need to find someone to do this for me. I can do it myself."

Then it was the branding piece. Having worked with other brands and other startups, I learned about agencies, creative agencies, and where I could go to help with the branding. Then just being in a COO position, operations, and knowing where I could buy bourbon, where I could find a bottling plant, and where you need to go for the bottles and the forks and the da da da.

So it really was—I mean, Adam, my husband, likes to say that this project has been a culmination of everything that I have done. It really is somewhat of a passion project because I happen to be a big bourbon fan. But it really is one of those where I touched every single aspect of alcohol development or branding in the industry. I was like, "Okay, this is my one opportunity to bring it all together and to be 100% responsible for it." For me, it just made sense. I was like, "This is my opportunity. I have to do it now."

Elise Holtzman: Most advisors who talk to people starting their own businesses advise having a business plan, sitting down, and having it all mapped out, or at least a lot of it mapped out before you take the leap. Yet we do hear stories of people taking the leap, flying by the seat of their pants, sometimes failing several times, but also sometimes being able to make it happen.

How planned out were you before you really dove into this thing? Because again, you have all this experience. You know where to find all of these people. Did you have a full-blown plan? Did you have other people on your team? Or was this like Lisa with a pen and a napkin at the kitchen table?

Lisa Sawyer Derman: It was a family project for sure. But I did have a full-blown plan. Primarily, I think I was fortunate in that because I had done plans for people before. I knew exactly what I needed to plan out. I did have a five-year business plan. We had an objective with what we wanted to do. Even when I knew I wanted to do something with bourbon, I didn't know exactly what, because the bourbon market is very competitive, male-dominated, and aged products. It takes a long time to actually get to a spot where you have bourbon to sell.

So that's where the back-of-the-napkin and working in the kitchen came into play. Because just like one of those things, we were here in summer, the kids were all home, people were starting to drink bourbon cocktails more. So we were just home playing with different bourbon cocktails. The kids started making a Paper Plane, which is bourbon, Amaro, Aperol, and lemon juice. I was like, "Oh, I never really thought about bourbon cocktails, because I was a bourbon neat or bourbon on the rocks kind of person."

The kids were like, "Oh yeah, Paper Plane—it's amazing." Everyone was drinking an old fashioned now, so we started playing around with different bitters and stuff. I was like, "Aha, let's create a bourbon that is perfect for bourbon cocktails but also introduces a new bourbon drinker into the category who may think, oh gosh, I don't want to drink a brown spirit neat. It's too strong."

That's why our bourbons are infused with only natural flavors. But it really was an experiment around the kitchen. Jackson, my son, wound up spending the summer doing different formulas with the bourbons. It was a year of development. We were like, "Okay, we've got something that we think will work." Once I knew that we had something that could fill a gap in the marketplace, I started working on the five-year plan and built it out.

Elise Holtzman: I love that your kids are involved in this too, because they may be closer to what the market is looking for, right? Especially because you and I, our kids are similar ages. We have these adult children who are drinking alcohol, and they're out there and they know what's going on. I'm glad you said kitchen because I had this funny image in my mind of you guys mixing things in a bathtub or whatever. But that's the idea, right? That you were very grassroots, "Let's figure this out at home and see if we can make something the market will love."

Lisa Sawyer Derman: Yeah, it is. Now, you were asking, is it just me? Pretty much it's just me. Adam, my husband, is a commercial advisor. He works on a lot of the strategy piece, but he's still a full-time lawyer running a litigation department. Kayla, my middle daughter, works 100% with us. She's full time. She does all the marketing, all the social media, 100% because exactly what you said, she's the target audience. Everything I'm like, "I don't know, doesn't make sense on social media," she's like, "No, Mom, it's me. Trust me on this." She is our target audience, and I rely on her so much to make sure we're authentic to the brand.

Elise Holtzman: What are some of the challenges that you run into from the branding perspective, from the business-building perspective? I'm curious to hear what some of those are and then also how your background—we've talked a lot about how your background has shaped your ability to do this. What are some of the lessons you think you've taken away from things you've done in the past that help you navigate these challenges?

Lisa Sawyer Derman: I think a lot of what I took away from past experiences is that many people put too much money into their branding before they have a proven concept. I think I was lucky to see some things fail and be able to navigate around that. I take the time to test something before I invest in it. That's why we may not go full-blown on our website because we just want to see how people are using the website before we develop a whole store, merch, etc.

Even expanding into different markets, we launched in New Jersey and Kentucky very specifically. In Kentucky, I wanted to see if we could play with the big boys in Kentucky with bourbon, which we have been able to. In New Jersey, it's a diverse market—off-premise, on-premise, country clubs, tons of bars, catering halls, retail stores. We were able to test all these different markets and things. I feel like having the experience to say to myself, "Go slowly, don't just jump in, don't feel like you need to put so much money behind the best PR agency, etc., and test some things first" has been my pathway.

Elise Holtzman: It sounds like a lot of patience is required as well, especially if you're passionate about it.

Lisa Sawyer Derman: Yes, very much. Because you do want to dive in. Part of it is that this industry is such that because you have to get distributors in every market, it slows it down naturally because it's hard to get someone to carry your product. But that's also just part of having been in the industry for so long, I know what distributors are looking for. I know what metrics they need to see, where they need to see proof of concept before they'll take it into another market.

Elise Holtzman: Speaking of metrics, what are some of the kinds of metrics or key business indicators that you're tracking? Most of the people listening to this podcast are practicing lawyers or may be in marketing for law firms because I talk to a lot of those kinds of folks. A lot of times, we are not thinking about those things in law—we're tracking billable hours.

The more senior lawyers hopefully are tracking things like profitability and how efficient people are being in their practice groups, all of those sorts of things. But we're not really used to tracking business markers. So what are some of the business markers that somebody in a business like yours has to be tracking, especially as you're starting to grow?

Lisa Sawyer Derman: It varies, of course, by business. In the alcohol industry, I'm looking at case sales. As you grow, it's all about case sales and reorder rate. I think that goes back to what you're saying about having the business plan. I have a five-year plan. I know where I need to be. I need to sell 60,000 cases within five years. How am I going to do it? Is it going to be because each restaurant is going to order twice, three, four times the amount that they ordered before? Or is it because I'm going to get into 10 more restaurants? Finding that balance has been challenging for me.

Like you said, as lawyers, we're not necessarily focused on the business unless we're actually in the business of a client that we're working for. I feel like that was the biggest switch for me because it wasn't about looking at P&Ls, cost of goods, or paying the right tax rate, and things like that. It became more of a very close analysis of my P&L and daily: how many stores have we opened and how many cases are they buying—not so much about the contracts and legal aspects of it, which is interesting too because I know all the legal issues that you can have in alcohol beverage law, sometimes I find that that is a distraction for me because I'm less willing to take some risks because I know what the legal ramifications can be. I do feel like someone without a legal background would be like, "No, I'm going to jump in and do it." Whereas I'm a little bit like, "Technically, the label's not supposed to—" that kind of stuff.

Elise Holtzman: I'm glad that you said that. I think that's important to point out because I always say we didn't self-select into law school to be salespeople or risk takers. It was a safe profession, at least when you and I went into it, to go into. Now you've got people who are not risk takers, then I always joke they beat the creativity and risk out of us because they teach us what they literally called the "parade of horribles" about all the horrible things that can happen to you. Then they unleash us on the world that we're supposed to go out there and advise businesses on how to grow their businesses or make money or deal with risks. It's interesting that you have that good cop, bad cop situation going on in your own mind.

Lisa Sawyer Derman: Yeah, that was definitely an evolution. That's been over the last 10 years, which is one of the reasons I couldn't have done what I'm doing now 10 years ago. I do feel like it took me having this experience, having worked with founders, having seen the risks that you need to take, having to put yourself out there.

When you're growing a brand, it's the hardest thing for me. As a lawyer, I was always behind the scenes. I loved that my work spoke for itself. In today's age, it's very founder-focused and more consumer-facing, which is not natural for me. I don't think that I could have done it in my 40s, but I'm able to do it more now because I'm less concerned about what everyone is thinking about me as the face of the brand.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah. You and I have established that we are the same age, our birthdays are within a week of each other. For sure, if this is something that you're not used to being the bright, shiny object, you're not used to being the face of the brand, and then all of a sudden, it's like all eyes are on you, I could see that being daunting for somebody who's not accustomed to being in the public eye, or not really looking for that, and yet we are at a certain stage of life where I wish everybody could have this at age 20, but they can't. It takes some time to get there. But knowing you've got a good product and if somebody says no to you, I suspect that it's a disappointment but it also doesn't take you off the path. It's like, "Okay, it wasn't a good fit for this person. Now I can move forward to someone who really wants this."

Lisa Sawyer Derman: Right. Exactly. It's true. Again, experience allows you to do that, right? It's like, it's not just someone saying no, it's someone challenging your idea. You know, it's like, they may not like the product, but they could also say they don't like your strategy. You know, I don't like your marketing. You need to target this group and you're being too focused on new bourbon drinkers, etc.

So it's like having the confidence to say, "No, this is the plan that I want to go on and I'm sticking with it." Of course, that's one of the beauties of creating your own thing or doing your own thing, whether it's starting a brand or just starting your own practice or starting your own business. Just in general, it's like being able to make those decisions and having the confidence that the decisions you're making are the right ones for the path that you've chosen is key.

Elise Holtzman: Have you had naysayers? Maybe people that were, without outing anybody, people that were close to you who said, "What on earth are you doing and this is a crazy idea?" Having that confidence is important, but I imagine that, especially if it's people that are close to you who say something like that, that could be a little bit of a blow. So what has that looked like? What are some of the things that you've heard from people?

Lisa Sawyer Derman: Just in general, I think that this goes with starting any business. It's so competitive. You know, it's like, what makes you think that someone's going to buy your bourbon when there are thousands of bourbons out there? You know, thousands of bourbons made by very, very successful, experienced master distillers, etc. Especially because we're bourbon.

When I first started pitching it and showing it to people, it was, "Your labeling is too bright and fresh and it doesn't look like it's a bourbon." I'm like, "Well, okay, that's exactly my point. Like, I want to do that." So I had people say it's just such a crowded area. I had people say, like, "Really, why do you want to do this at this stage of your life? Don't you want to be looking at retirement?" You know, so I think it was more like incredulous than it was, "You've got a bad idea." It was more of a why are you taking this step now?

Elise Holtzman: What has your response to people been?

Lisa Sawyer Derman: I'm inspired by my mother-in-law, who is 80 years old, and she is still a mediator. You know, it's like she was an attorney, she had her own practice, she went into politics, she was a judge, same thing. She could have retired, and I was like, "But she didn't." You know, she went into mediation, arbitration, and she loves working and learning and meeting new people and facing challenges. She's always inspired me.

I feel the same way. Like, I just feel like it keeps me active and involved. The fact that I'm doing this with my kids is also just incredible, because it's like I'm doing something with them. It's a family business that we're building. I feel like it's keeping me young by staying in this marketing community with alcohol beverage. So, no, for me, I just love it. I think I'll always be someone who's working and doing. So I already have some other projects that I want to do.

Elise Holtzman: Oh, wow. That's exciting. Yeah. You know, it's interesting to me because with all of the experience that you've had and all of the knowledge that you already had coming into this, you were obviously learning so much. I think that for most people, especially people who are intellectually curious, went to law school because they cared about stuff like that, they wanted to learn, I think that often keeps people going. It's like if you're still learning, and especially you're learning alongside your kids in a different generation and all that, it sounds really exciting.

Lisa Sawyer Derman: Yeah.

Elise Holtzman: So what advice would you then have, right? You're still getting advice from your mother-in-law, sounds like, or at least learning from her example. What advice would you give to younger lawyers at this point? And, you know, you and I both have kids. I have one who's becoming a lawyer. You have one who may wind up becoming a lawyer at some point. What would you say to younger people who are starting out in the law? And then maybe we'll talk a little bit about what you tell people who want to start their own businesses.

Lisa Sawyer Derman: So a piece of advice that was given to me, and I'm curious if you got the same one, it was very much like you need to go to the biggest and the best. So, like, whatever offer you get from a firm, it's like you need to go to the biggest law firm and you're going to get that training. I remember at the time really wanting to push back against that.

I do feel like now, and you know, and I talk about my son who's going to law school, I do feel like you need to get into an environment where you can learn from really smart people. So if that means going to a big firm, even though you think you may not want a big firm environment, you don't have to stay there. But having access to different practice group areas and people who are willing to mentor you and firms that have programs and things like that, I do feel like that that is still very, very valuable to young attorneys.

Then if you can add your passion to it, even better, if you can get into that area and something that you think you want to do. But finding great mentors is key.

Elise Holtzman: What about the idea of specializing? Because obviously you specialized almost immediately, even though it sounded like it wasn't part of your plan, it fell into your lap and it was a happy coincidence. But what do you tell people, perhaps your son or other young people you know, about moving into a specialty?

Lisa Sawyer Derman: I think about this a lot too, on whether or not that that's a good thing to do. It absolutely worked out for me. I do feel like specializing from the get-go, it's like if you look at Malcolm Gladwell, 10,000 hours, you know, you buy a little freedom when you become specialized. So I know for me, it gave me a flexibility to work part time because I was so specialized.

It gave me a seat at a table because someone needed that special information, that special piece of law. So I do feel like if you think that you like an area, I would absolutely go for it and specialize. I think that if you can do it in an environment where you get to use that in a broader practice, that that's a home run. So, like, for me, yes, I was always the alcohol beverage lawyer, but I was also at the seat when huge M&A deals were going down. So I got to see that experience as a very junior associate that I may not have had if I was just the corporate lawyer. So I think if you think you like an area, I think it's a great thing to do.

Elise Holtzman: You're not going to get any argument from me because I work with a lot of people on business development, private practice lawyers and on business development, attracting and retaining their clients. It's a lot easier to have those sorts of conversations when you have a particular area of practice that you are a leading authority in and are an expert in and where you can really deliver value.

What about people who want to start their own business? Now, again, you had all this expertise. As you pointed out, you knew, I mentioned this guy who came to speak to this entrepreneurs group that I was in about his vodka business. I was shocked, especially as a lawyer. I had absolutely no idea. He was talking about getting the bottles, the design on the bottles approved and that sort of thing, then not ordering all of the bottles before he found out whether he was approved or not, that kind of stuff. So you had all of that background. It is highly regulated.

What about somebody who doesn't have all that experience and says, "I want to go for it, I want to start something new." What would you tell somebody about starting a business now that you've helped other businesses start and started your own?

Lisa Sawyer Derman: Number one, you got to be committed. You got to jump right in. So I think that that's the hardest part. I think that that's the biggest leap. I think that idea of leaving something, leaving security and taking that risk and being afraid of failure. And for me, I wasn't so much concerned about the financial failure as I was about my reputation.

There are a lot of great influencers and podcasters, yourself included, Elise, that I listen to, to say, you cannot worry about what other people are thinking about you. You can't worry about the embarrassment of failure. You just have to look at that as an opportunity to learn and pivot and change. So before anyone would go into a business, I think that they have to take a step assuming that they financially are able to do that. And, of course, you have to always look at your surroundings and what your particular situation is. But just don't be afraid of failure.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah. Look, I think that especially for lawyers, that's challenging because we are constantly under scrutiny, and our reputation to some extent is all we have. We're not selling a product, we're selling a service. We've got ethics to worry about and appearances to worry about and our clients, what they want to worry about. So I think that that can be particularly challenging for people who have been in an industry like law, where flying by the seat of your pants and thinking outside of the box is not necessarily something that we're accustomed to.

Lisa, this is an amazing story, and I'm so glad you've been here today. I think a lot of people are going to take inspiration from this to really follow their dreams. As we wrap up our time together, I want to ask you a question that I ask all of my guests at the end of the show.

There's a phenomenon called the curse of knowledge, where experts sometimes forget that what is so obvious and natural to them is not at all obvious to others. When it comes to making a switch like this, going from a risk-averse industry, if you will, into entrepreneurship, which, regardless of where you are in your life, does involve risk, big or small, what's a principle or piece of advice that may seem obvious to you at this point, but you think is important for people to hear?

Lisa Sawyer Derman: Well, definitely what I just said before about just not being afraid of embarrassment, not being afraid of failure. I also, and I say this a lot to women in general, trust your gut. It's like, don't feel like you need to always look to outsiders and advisors and someone who may pretend that they know more than you. It's like if you've gotten to the point where you know that you want to make this leap and make this change, trust your instincts.

I wish that that's something that I had learned earlier. It took me several years to get here. But I think that you have to have faith in yourself and not be afraid of failure.

Elise Holtzman: I love that. I mean, don't substitute somebody else's judgment for your own. You have no idea what's going on for them. I think that some of the ways in which women have been socialized and continue to be socialized, we can tend to do that. So I think that your advice is amazing, whether you're a woman or a man looking to make a change.

So, Lisa, thank you so much for being here today. This was really fun to learn about what you're doing and your industry and your business. I think I'll speak for everybody who's listening when I wish you tremendous continued success. I can't wait to hear what comes next for Five Springs.

Lisa Sawyer Derman: Thank you. Thank you. It was a pleasure, Elise. Thank you so much.

Elise Holtzman: Thank you. I want to thank our listeners for tuning in as well. If you've enjoyed today's show, please subscribe, rate, and review us at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. In the meantime, be bold, take action, and make things happen. We'll see you next time.