Tara Stingley | How to Become a Visible Expert in Your Practice Area

Welcome to The Lawyer's Edge, where we talk with top attorneys, legal industry experts, and business advisors about tools and strategies lawyers can use to grow thriving law firms and become impactful leaders. Here's your host, Elise Holtzman.

Elise Holtzman: Hi everyone, it's Elise Holtzman here, a former practicing lawyer and the host of The Lawyer's Edge Podcast where I sit down with successful attorneys, legal marketing specialists, business leaders, and authors to talk about how lawyers and law firms can grow and sustain healthy, profitable businesses.

I am really excited to welcome my guest today, Tara Stingley. Tara is a partner at Cline Williams and the chair of its Labor and Employment section. Cline Williams, established in 1857, is Nebraska's oldest existing law firm and is a full-service firm with approximately 60 lawyers working in five offices located throughout Nebraska and Colorado.

Tara is also the firm's primary representative to the Employment Law Alliance, the largest international network of labor and employment lawyers. Tara focuses her practice on employment law, advising businesses in a variety of industries on compliance with federal, state, and local employment laws and regulations. Tara, welcome to The Lawyer's Edge.

Tara Stingley: Thanks so much for having me on the program.

Elise Holtzman: Absolutely. I'm delighted to have you. We have so much to talk about today because you are a leader in your firm, you have been in various leadership roles in the firm. I think based on talking to you, I've learned that your firm is a little bit different than many other firms in terms of how their people are structuring the partnership and how people are compensated. We've got a lot to talk about today.

I'd love to start out by hearing your story about how and why you decided to become a lawyer and how you wound up becoming a partner at Cline Williams.

Tara Stingley: Well, I owe much of that, I think, to blessings and a little bit of luck. I grew up on a cattle ranch in the north-central part of the state and a town with no stoplights and more cattle than people and got my undergrad and my law school degree from the University of Nebraska, which makes me a Husker fan for better or worse.

But I didn't have any lawyers in my family. I'd never set foot in a private firm. I went to law school thinking that I was going to be a prosecutor and majored in criminal justice. During law school, I thought, “I should at least spend some time talking with private firms to see what this is about and if this is something I'm interested in,” and had the good fortune to talk with Cline Williams and to realize what phenomenal lawyers were a part of this firm, the unique history that it has, and the dedication of the practice of law and excellence in practicing law.

After I graduated from law school, I spent two years clerking for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Honorable Judge Riley, and then came back to Cline Williams in 2007 and I've been here ever since.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah, so you're a lifer, which is pretty unusual these days. People don't necessarily spend their entire careers at the same firm. I mentioned that your firm is different from firms that perhaps compete with you in the same or similar marketplaces. Tell me a little bit about that. What makes your firm different from other firms?

Tara Stingley: Well, as you mentioned, we traced our way back to 1857 and we are Nebraska's oldest existing law firm, older than the state of Nebraska itself, actually. Over the years, other firms have come and gone, other firms have expanded and reduced, and we're still here. I think we owe much of that to our very unique structure.

We are a seniority-based true partnership. That true partnership concept really permeates every aspect of our structure, our mentality, how we treat one another. As a law student, trying to figure all of this out and where you want to be, what you want to do, you're afraid to ask these questions, and so truly knowing what I know now about our firm and its structure and the structure of our competitors makes me realize how lucky I am to be here.

What that true partnership mentality focuses on is that we are all working as hard as we can to be the best lawyers we can be, to be excellent in our practice, and to grow in the same direction equally as hard as our colleagues. With that mindset, we remove that internal competition that seems to really be a part of a lot of other firms.

We're all very competitive by nature, I think lawyers are, but we can focus on being a team, on true teamwork, on getting the work to the best lawyer for the job on that particular client's dilemma.

We don't compete with one another for money, credit, or title. We all focus on just doing the best work for our clients that we can. That teamwork mentality has really freed us up to just try to be the best lawyers we can in the time that we're practicing and to leave something behind for the next generation coming behind us.

Elise Holtzman: I think many people are curious about this sort of structure. Just to be clear, when you say a true partnership and when you say that you're not competing over money, if I'm understanding you correctly, what you're saying is when somebody brings in a client, that's the firm's client and that they're not getting compensated for bringing in that particular client, that their compensation is not necessarily tied to how many hours of work comes in for that particular client in a given year. Is that part of what you're talking about?

Tara Stingley: Yeah, that is correct. We are a seniority-based true partnership. Our share in the firm's profits is dependent on what our time with the firm has been and what our ownership interest is of the firm.

But for example, if I should bring in a large large client, I don't get any additional compensation simply due to that client. I of course have expectations and obligations to the firm regarding the billable and non-billable contributions I make to the firm, the amount of revenue I generate, and the overall leverage, but we're all doing that. We're all focusing on that. If we're all contributing in those ways, then we will all share equally in the firm's success.

Again, it removes that internal competition. Some of the concepts that other firms struggle with in terms of incentivizing people, equal compensation for equal work, valuing people, we just don't have to deal with those struggles because we don't fight over money. We're all just focusing on excellence and practicing law.

Elise Holtzman: Tara, what about the argument that some lawyers from other firms with other structures may have that goes something along the lines of, “If that's the case, if you're in lockstep, if you will, how are attorneys motivated to even take the time to go out there and find clients, bring clients into the firm, work even harder for clients and retain their clients?”

Tara Stingley: Yeah, that's such a great question. I think that we are all intrinsically motivated to all succeed together. It's kind of a no-jerks-allowed policy where we look each other in the eye and say, “I've got your back and I know you've got mine and I'm going to be there and I'm going to work just as hard as you are for our mutual success.”

Yeah, I realize that philosophy is not for everybody. Some people are motivated by money. Some people are motivated singularly by money to the detriment of their colleagues.

For me, I can't imagine practicing in that place because I know what I want to do, I know what I think is important to my career, and I want to practice with people who are like that where we were all focusing on doing the same things for the same reasons knowing that we're all going to succeed together. I don't have to worry about the person going into a conference room at the end of the year saying, "Well, I know Tara worked really hard, but she just isn't worth as much money as me for these reasons.” I don't have that.

I can count on my partners to say, "I've got this really tough issue for a client. I need someone who's a subject-matter expert on this. Can you handle it?" I know that somebody has my back in that situation. And vice versa, I'll have theirs when that situation comes up and you remove the fighting, the hoarding of clients, the fight for glory of who gets the name recognition. It just allows you to focus on the work for the clients, which is why we all got into the practice of law, if you think about it, to begin with.

Elise Holtzman: I imagine that not everyone then is going to be a good fit for your firm, and that over time, here and there, there have been people who, for whatever reason, perhaps because they aren't a good fit for the culture, have decided to go elsewhere, or that the firm has decided that it's not a good match. That means that you've got to be very good at deciding who you're bringing into the firm.

Tara Stingley: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think any firm struggles with that issue, I can say that we focus very hard on the people that we recruit on our associate to partnership track of training and mentoring and really finding the best people who will succeed and excel in the system.

I think I trace it back to our roots of that Western mentality, that spirit of the West, entrepreneurial spirit where there may not be a roadmap laid out for you, but you're creating something and working on something that is going to last for generations beyond you and it's not just for the glory of today or today's achievement.

It's building something for the success that a whole group is going to share in and that's going to be there when you stop practicing law and someone else takes your place.

Elise Holtzman: To be clear, you're not only talking about this particular culture and this way of doing business as a partner of the firm, you're talking about this as somebody who was the first woman on your firm's executive committee. I know you've served in that role for nine years. Am I correct that you just finished serving in that role or you're going to finish serving in that role soon?

Tara Stingley: I did. I just stepped off of our firm's executive committee in December of last year.

Elise Holtzman: Okay, so you were there for a really long time. How is that role meaningful to you personally? If you think that it was particularly meaningful for the firm to have a woman in that role, I'd love to hear more about that.

Tara Stingley: Yeah. when I was asked to serve on our firm's executive committee to run for election, my initial reaction was, "I'm a new partner. There are so many other people who know more about this firm and governing than I do." It was all of those self-defeating ideas of, "I can't do it. Why would I do it? And why would anyone want me on there?"

I would like to say that being the first woman on there didn't matter. I realize now that it probably did. I think it probably mattered more to other people who could now see themselves represented in the leadership of the firm.

I remember feeling very humbled initially being asked to serve. Now looking back at those nine years, I realize what a blessing that was. I know that I brought a different viewpoint to our executive committee. It doesn't mean it was always right, but it was a different viewpoint and perspective that I think really challenged other members of the executive committee to think about the way that they were defining the issues or decisions that we were reaching.

That's why I realized that different representation to reflect the makeup of a firm or society in our communities is so important. I certainly see that as an employment lawyer, but I see that in terms of governance as well that there's something to be said about young lawyers, young female lawyers, being able to look up and see someone like them being represented in the governing body of a firm and I'm really grateful for that opportunity.

Elise Holtzman: Particularly for a firm that was established before the state of Nebraska itself was established, and has a long history of presumably White guys running the firm, and nothing wrong with White guys, but there is a different perspective to be had, so I'm sure you learned a lot in that role and contributed a lot.

As you say, you may not have always been right. Also, I would suspect it wasn't always necessarily pretty, but it was something perhaps that the firm really needed.

Tara Stingley: Yeah. I mean, anytime that you're serving in a governing role, it can be difficult, it can be stressful, it takes time and energy out of your practice. I think only stepping away from that now do I realize because I tend to be a pretty empathetic person, I tend to absorb a lot of the issues or challenges that we're dealing with, particularly on a personal level with other people.

So I realize now what a weight that was on me at the time of those nine years. That's not to say that I regret it, not at all, but it certainly is an extra challenge or burden that can be difficult when you're trying to balance it all, grow your practice, and meet clients' needs.

Elise Holtzman: One of the things that I noticed about you when I looked at your professional biography on the firm's website is that over the last several years, you have written a remarkable number of articles and you've posted and appeared on an enormous number of podcasts all on topics you and your clients probably encounter on a regular basis.

Particularly given that you are going to make the same amount of money, regardless of whether you get out there and you raise your visibility as an expert in the marketplace, I think it's fascinating that you have devoted so much time and energy to those pursuits.

I also noticed on the website that you've had all sorts of different recognitions and that you've done a tremendous amount of volunteer activity. I would love to know what has motivated you to invest so much time and energy into building your brand, raising your profile in the legal and business communities, and serving your firm by doing those things.

Tara Stingley: Yeah, that's a great question. I guess part of it I would trace back even to when I was growing up in high school, college, and law school. I have parents that are both veterans. They were always so involved in our community. That concept of getting involved, leading, and speaking have always been inherent in my upbringing.

So I really carry that through the things I did in high school and small town in Nebraska and in college and in law school of the importance of being involved in things for your own personal development and for what you were creating for others.

Now that I'm here at Cline Williams, I get the benefit of doing that as well. I think I really saw the importance of that early on. When I first joined the firm, I was slotted for general litigation, which I really enjoyed, but I came here knowing that I wanted to specialize in employment law.

I remember the chair at the employment section telling me one time that he thought they had enough employment lawyers and they really didn't need any more. I thought, “I disagree.” So, immediately I started trying to get my name out there by writing publications on employment law topics so that other attorneys across the state could see that I was specializing in employment law and I had something to say about this topic and raising my hand when people were looking for speakers for different community organizations, bar presentations, or whatever it may be so that you were starting to get your name out there and build brand awareness about, "This is who I am. This is what I can do," and developing a niche in that area.

I think that's so important for young lawyers to be able to show, "What do you want to do? How do you want to be regarded? What do you want to be known as?" It's not always easy. It's going to take some blood, sweat, and tears of putting in more hours maybe than you initially want, not going home at 5:00 PM, but putting in the time, the effort, and the investment early, I think played a paid dividends for me over the course of my practice.

I can look back at those early speaking opportunities, those early articles, and see now the results of that, that it started to lay this foundation of being asked to speak more and writing more and being asked to speak on podcasts, and whatever it may be.

Sometimes I think there's a mentality of people worrying that they don't have time to do something, they're not comfortable speaking, or they aren't interested in writing if there's no payoff. I think about all of these things about, well, what is the payoff? What is the end game? What's the end result? What are you trying to build?

You've got to have a road map of how you're going to get there. Then you've got to be willing to spend the time and do the work to build your brand, to identify to people who you are, what you're an expert in, and why they should hire you. I think it all comes back to that of what do you want to be known as and why would people hire you as a lawyer. What do you have to say about these issues?

I see that still now at our firm I'm the chair of our labor and employment section. During the pandemic, we had to switch from doing presentations in person to doing webinars. Now we've continued with that. I see the benefit of that work and the recognition that we've gotten from clients and community organizations to say how well done those are, how they identify with that, the topic that we speak on, what a benefit to them that is.

It's grunt work sometimes. It's the non-glorious work that sometimes you got to do, but that I think is so important in being of mind to clients and prospective clients of why they should hire you and why our firm has something to say on a topic.

Elise Holtzman: I love hearing your passion and enthusiasm for this, and I love that you're talking about the payoff. The payoff in terms of clients, the payoffs in terms of people understanding what you do, and the value you deliver. This is kind of, as you know by now, a little bit of a soapbox issue for me.

I talk to my clients all the time when it comes to business development about not being a best-kept secret, not being invisible, and trailing away in your office because if nobody knows how great you are, you're not going to be able to attract those clients.

Even if it's not about more money, which as you mentioned, for some people it is and for some people it isn't, it may simply be more about enjoying the work you do, just getting to do more of it, and being able to attract more exciting types of work to the firm.

Tara Stingley: Yeah, you just nailed it right there. I mean, there are lots of opportunities out there, but it's finding the clients you want to work with and the work that you want to do.

One of the things I'm very passionate about is doing training for clients, which was a real focus after the #MeToo movement and a lot of companies focusing on sexual harassment training and equal employment opportunity. I love doing that.

I feel like my initial involvement in writing and speaking really helped me develop those skills where then I did feel comfortable going into a client's headquarters and speaking on those topics and speaking with authority.

Sometimes I feel like as young lawyers, we tend to doubt ourselves to say, "Well, I don't have anything to say on this topic because I've only been practicing for a couple of years, and who would listen to me and why would they trust anything I have to say?"

I think inherently, people underestimate their values, especially as lawyers. When we think about the training that went through, and it was specialized, incredibly focused training that not every member of the population goes through, at least you know that too, lawyers bring something to the table and lawyers shouldn't be afraid, young lawyers shouldn't be afraid to raise their hand and get involved in those opportunities and to think about the opportunities it'll create down the road.

I look back at some of the things I did as a young lawyer, especially before I had kids and I struggled to have kids, so at the time, I told myself, “Well, not knowing when I may be able to have children, I'm going to really throw my energy into my job right now when I have the time to do it.”

I probably threw a lot of darts at the wall trying to find the thing that paid off. There's a lot of trial and error in that. Not everything was a gravy train looking back on it, but sometimes you got to do that to find the thing that clicks, that fits, and that really takes you to the next level.

Elise Holtzman: You're talking about being very proactive about finding these opportunities and creating these opportunities. I think that many attorneys don't realize that they have the power to create a brand, to let people know what they're doing.

I think that some people think, "Well, I have to wait. Nobody's ever asked me to speak on a panel. Nobody's ever asked me to be on a podcast. Nobody has ever invited me to write an article." Would you share a little bit about the ways in which you think lawyers can reach out to publications, to organizations, to create those opportunities for themselves rather than hoping and waiting that those opportunities fall into their lap?

Because you and I both know that hope is not a strategy, I'm a big believer in taking proactive action. Obviously, you are as well. What advice do you have for people who say, "Well, I haven't done any of this, and I don't even know where to start?"

Tara Stingley: Yeah, that's one of my favorite taglines from you, by the way: Hope is not a strategy. It just isn't. You can start small by thinking about who your network is, where you hope to get work, and the areas that you want to practice in, and then figuring out, “Well, what publications, sources, or conferences speak to that topic that I could get involved in?”

I would say in my practice, I found that so many of these organizations and publications are hungry for content. They're looking for people to contribute. Nobody should be waiting to be asked. The worst that somebody can say is if you volunteer to contribute an article on a scholarly topic within your practice, the worst thing that it can say is no.

They're probably not going to say that, so reach out, whether it's your state bar publication, the annual conference that's coming up for your state bar, or in my practice in labor and employment, I can think of a variety of HR-related organizations that are always looking for speakers. Really, it's just raising your hand and being confident enough in yourself to think that it’s more likely than not that I'm going to be selected for this so just get out there and try it.

I mean, I even see that in some of the leadership positions I hold now. I'm lucky enough to be on the board of directors for the Employment Law Alliance. I remember when I first became our firm's representative to that organization looking at all these leaders up on the stage and thinking, “My goodness, I wish I could be like them. I'll never be in that spot.”

It just took one conversation with somebody to say, “How do I get more involved?” And she said, “We'd be grateful for you to be involved.” It's just asking the question, raising your hand, and don't be afraid to do it.

Elise Holtzman: Also to your point, when you ask those questions and you reach out and you say, “I'm interested,” you don't necessarily know exactly what direction it's going in. For example, I know for myself that I once reached out to a publication and said, "Hey, I'd love to write an article for you if you're open to it. Here's something I have in mind." They said, "Well, we actually recently published something similar, but we noticed on your website that you talk about this. Would you be willing to write an article on that?" I said, "Yes, of course, absolutely."

I think going into it, being proactive, asking people how you can get involved, and also how you can deliver value, because what you're talking about is doing just that, when you speak on a podcast, whether it's the Employment Law Alliance's podcast or another, or whether you're writing for one of the Nebraska publications you write for, you're not just there showing everybody how great you are, you're actually delivering value to them.

I can tell just from speaking with you the few times that we've spoken that that is one of your values. You talked about those Midwestern values, being able to serve other people. So I think that if you're open-minded to the possibilities and you reach out to people, those are the kinds of opportunities that are going to come to you.

Then, of course, once you've done it more than a few times, people will take notice of it and that's when they're going to start asking. But if you're just sitting in your office and you've never reached out to anybody, they're not going to come pluck you out of obscurity necessarily. It does involve thinking about it and taking some action on it.

Tara Stingley: Exactly, I mean, I think it's trying to find a way to differentiate yourself and be identified as a subject-matter expert or someone, like you said, who can provide value.

People define value in different ways, depending on what their needs are. But I think ultimately, if you're looking for clients to hire you, you're bringing some type of value to them, whether it's your skill set, the way in which you approach a problem, how quickly you may work and get up to speed on something, what your team looks like, what your incentives are, I think all of those will play into why does a client pick you as their lawyer and why do they keep working with you?

I think it is a bit of a Midwestern mentality that value, I may not see the immediate payoff of it, but I'm doing something for a greater purpose than just my initial benefit from it.

I think that if young lawyers especially approach those types of opportunities with that mindset, that it's an investment, it's going to take time for these things to pay off, but you're playing the long game here. I know this, but I'm here at Cline Williams, and I know this is the only place I want to be. I don't want to practice law anywhere else. I'm so blessed to be here.

I know over and over again that I'm running a marathon, not a sprint. These things are going to take time. Now, looking back as a mid-level partner, I can see the payoff that all of this has made. I can't impress upon young lawyers enough of the importance of getting involved, raising your hand, and don't be afraid to show what you're capable of.

Elise Holtzman: I'd like to highlight something you just said that I think is so important. It's this idea of going into this with the idea of giving and planting those seeds without the expectation of getting something in return right away.

It's not a tit-for-tat sort of a thing. It's playing the long game and understanding that the rewards will come. Some of them may just be psychological rewards, it's not necessarily in the form of business. It could simply be, “I just love what I do. I get to meet really great people every time I do a webinar or publish an article, or I hear from people who received value, who are interested in it.”

There's so much reward that you can get at the end of it, including bringing clients into the firm. But when you go into it with this expectation of getting something right away, I think you're going to be disappointed and I think that's important. I'm glad you raised that because I think it's an important thing for people to remember.

Tara Stingley: Yeah, I think about it, we talk about networking events a lot, sometimes we all have our preconceived notions about what networking means and we don't want to do it, we don't want to go to the event. We think we're not going to get anything out of it.

If that is a mentality that's driving you and why you're going to a certain thing and why you are where you are and what you're doing, I think it's going to shift your whole mindset in what you're doing and what's driving you to do it.

But if you look at it as an investment, like it's going to take time, it's going to take some work, you may not see the immediate results of it, but you know what you're working for and that's the incentive, that's what drives you, that's what gets you out of bed to keep doing this, that's going to be the short-term benefit, and the investment will ultimately pay off.

You'll start getting those calls. You'll be regarded as a subject-matter expert. You'll get those opportunities to work with the clients that you enjoy working with and the work that you want to do.

Once you can really define that and shape your practice, it's really, I don't want to say inspiring, that sounds cheesy, but it's so invigorating to enjoy and love the work that you do.

Elise Holtzman: I think that when you love what you do, when you're having fun, and you are invigorated, people want to be around that. So yes, they're going to hire you because of the subject-matter expertise that you have, they're also going to hire you because they like your energy and they want to be around you.

We want to work with people we like. All other things being equal, if there's another subject-matter expert out there who isn't having fun and is down in the dumps, people are not necessarily going to want to choose that person. They're going to want to choose the person who's having fun.

I love this idea of putting it all together, serve other people, have fun with it, deliver value, turn the light bulb on for people, be helpful to others, and the rewards will come.

Tara, as we start to wrap up our time together, there's a question I want to ask you, and it goes like this: There's a phenomenon called the curse of knowledge where experts sometimes forget that what is so obvious and natural to them is not at all obvious to others.

When it comes to being a leader in your organization and being a visible expert as an attorney, not hiding in your office growing that brand, what's a principle or piece of advice that may seem really obvious to you, but you think is important for people to hear?

Tara Stingley: Well, that's a great question. I think don't be afraid. I deal with, I think imposter syndrome, as a lot of professional women do, where we question whether we're good enough, smart enough, are we doing the right things? We worry about having it all and trying to balance work, family, personal, and professional lives, thinking that we're not ready for something, that we're not qualified, and being hesitant to get involved, to speak up, to raise our hand, to lead.

All I can say is don't be afraid. There's never going to be a perfect time to do that. Don't second-guess yourself. Your view may not be correct, it may not be perfect, but get out there and do something and trust in yourself and you'll continue to grow and develop and the payoffs will be there. You'll be able to look back at this career that you've built and be grateful that you got involved when you did and that you didn't let those opportunities pass.

Elise Holtzman: I often say that it's important to do the best you can to make sure that you don't have regrets. We don't want to look back and say, “Woulda, shoulda, coulda,” because it can be very frustrating and demoralizing so I love your advice about not being afraid.

We tend to not be risk-takers as lawyers so when you layer on some of the imposter syndrome and some of the things that women carry around because of the way we were socialized to think and behave, I think it can become even more challenging, but I know that that advice is going to resonate with a lot of people listening today. Thank you so much for that advice and thank you for being here today, Tara. It's been such a pleasure speaking with you.

Tara Stingley: Thank you so much for having me. This has been an incredible opportunity and I really appreciate the privilege to chat with you today.

Elise Holtzman: Absolutely, it's been my pleasure. I also want to thank our listeners for tuning in. If you've enjoyed today's show, please subscribe, rate, and review us at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. In the meantime, be bold, take action, and make things happen. We'll see you next time.

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