Sandra Cohen | The Long Game of Business Development That Actually Works

Elise Holtzman: Hi, everyone. It's Elise Holtzman here, a former practicing lawyer and the host of The Lawyer's Edge podcast. Welcome back for another episode.

Many lawyers dream of or at least toy with the idea of starting their own law firm. I think most lawyers who do it would tell you that they're glad they did, but that it takes a lot more than being a good lawyer to launch a firm that succeeds for the long haul.

I'm delighted to welcome a guest today who has done just that, created a boutique New York City law firm that serves sophisticated clients not just in the New York area but nationwide.

Before we dive in, today's episode is brought to you by the coaching team at The Lawyer's Edge, a training and coaching firm which has been focused exclusively on lawyers and law firms since 2008. Each member of The Lawyer's Edge coaching team is a trained, certified, and experienced professional coach and either a former practicing attorney or a former law firm marketing and business development professional.

Whatever your professional objectives, our coaches can help you achieve your goals more quickly, more easily, and with significantly less stress. To get connected with your coach, just email the team at hello@thelawyersedge.com.

My guest today is Sandra Cohen, the co-founder and managing partner of Cohen & Buckmann, based in New York City, which specializes in executive compensation, employee benefits, and pensions. The firm is nearly 10 years old and is highly ranked in Chambers USA Guide and The Legal 500, no small achievement for a young, small boutique firm.

Sandra is a frequent author and speaker and is a former adjunct professor at NYU Law School where she taught pension law to the next generation of employee benefits lawyers. She's a big believer that although her business has a bench of deep expertise and scholarship, it's really relationships and referrals that built her firm.

So she's here today to share some thoughts about business development for lawyers. Sandra, welcome to The Lawyer's Edge.

Sandra Cohen: Thanks for having me.

Elise Holtzman: I am so excited. We've been talking about this for a long time, and I know you have so much good advice that you give to people on a regular basis, so I'm really excited to have you here. I want to dive in by asking you first about what it looked like for you when you got started. I mentioned that you started the firm along with your co-founding partner nearly 10 years ago. How much did you know about marketing and business development when you took the plunge?

Sandra Cohen: I always had a bit of an entrepreneurial bent, but had worked my legal career at very large law firms, where some of my skills that I think were latent in there in terms of having an eye for marketing and relationships, they weren’t as valued as the technical lawyer skills.

I started my career at Sullivan & Cromwell for nearly seven years, and they didn’t really need me to bring in the next Microsoft or Goldman Sachs. My next firm at 11 years, I was a partner at Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt, which is a large Bay Street Canadian firm, and I think maybe Osler also appreciated the business development skills, but that’s where I started to think of myself as a lawyer who has a practice that is perhaps portable. Eventually, I moved that employee benefits practice out onto my own firm, which is Cohen & Buckmann.

So I guess I had a little bit of a latent and entrepreneurial bent. I didn’t consciously ever think of myself as a marketer. Like most lawyers, I never wanted to think about sales or pitching or asking for business. I didn’t want to do any of it. It felt sort of repulsive.

But I found it easy to make friends. So that skill is now what I think is one of the most important ones. I feel like I’m doing business with my friends every day.

Elise Holtzman: Did you have that recognition when you started the firm? Like, "Hey, I don’t really want to do this icky stuff, but I’m going to have to do it?" Or was it more along the lines of, "Well, I’m really good at this thing, I think I could have my own firm," and then you got into the firm, you got things started, and went, "Oh yeah, right, there is this element of I've got to go out there and find clients."

Sandra Cohen: Right, well, I both had some clients that I realized, "Oh, you know what? They think of me as their lawyer and I’ve already done the business development." It never involved making a sales pitch. It involved doing good work and maintaining a friendship or getting to know them and their problems.

I did start the firm and was lucky enough to have business, and then it was like, "Okay, where else does the business come from?" I always got a charge out of getting new clients. It sometimes feels like they land in your lap, but when you really think about it, they don’t just land in your lap. "Where did the client come from?"

I enjoyed giving it a lot of thought, and I still track our referrals very carefully. I make sure to thank them. I have a pretty good finger on the pulse of where our business comes from, which is something that intuitively I probably already knew when I started the business.

The other things involved in starting a law firm just didn’t bother me that much. They intimidate a lot of lawyers. I’m like, "I think I can do this." The administrative parts and the operations parts of the law firm, I kind of like.

Elise Holtzman: For sure. Yeah. No one ever taught us any of these things, so there’s a lot to figure out when you’re first getting started.

I love what you said about knowing where your clients are coming from. I just want to highlight that before we even dive into the rest of it, because there are many lawyers where I will ask them—they want to do more business development—and I’ll say, "Great, let’s look at where your current clients come from," and I get a little bit of a blank stare.

So I think that’s a really good takeaway right off the bat, that knowing where your clients come from—are they coming from other lawyers? Are they coming from other sorts of referral sources? Are they coming from content that you might put out there? Are they coming from organizations that you’re involved with where you’re meeting the right people?—is really important.

So let’s talk a little bit about, for you and for your firm, what role content marketing and thought leadership play for you. Whether it’s writing or speaking or posting articles, that kind of thing, how are you using that successfully to help grow your business?

Sandra Cohen: So I think those kinds of things—content marketing, the authorship of articles and books—and I wrote a chapter in a treatise, it’s more than marketing, right? It’s demonstrating awareness of what the client’s issues are and sort of showing your knowledge in action.

When you show that you care what clients are worried about, it brings you or your firm’s capabilities right to the client when they’re researching their options.

So one, it builds credibility in your practice area, which builds in a little more of that trust factor. It positions you or the attorneys at your firm as thought leaders in their field.

Over time, that library of content creates a searchable sort of knowledge base that can draw prospects to your firm. It also credentials you. It’s not always how they hear about you—although I would say sometimes, yes, "I read an article, I’d like to know more," and people reach out to us from the content—but it’s really more about building credibility as an attorney, sort of like this base.

It also strengthens client relationships between billable matters. It provides some ongoing value to clients, sort of that articles or, in our case, you know, we maintain a blog on fiduciary issues. It’s very highly followed by people that are interested in reading more about pension issues, and it opens the doors to, say, maybe a broader professional network too.

So opportunities that have come to us for speaking or authorship that otherwise wouldn’t have if we hadn’t already written something on the topic.

Elise Holtzman: Right. Once people know that you know what you’re talking about, they’re much more likely to come ask you to do something. I always say that there are times that I think—and it’s not a criticism, just an observation—that lawyers are often sitting in their offices waiting for someone to ask them.

It’s like, "Well, I’ve never written an article because I’ve never been asked," or "I’ve never spoken on a panel because I’ve never been asked." Unfortunately, it’s typically not going to happen that someone plucks you out of obscurity.

But once you’ve done some of this stuff and people realize that you know what you’re talking about, then they’re much more likely to reach out to you and say, "Hey, I noticed that you’ve done this sort of thing. Would you do it for us as well?"

Sandra Cohen: Exactly. I know that I know what I'm talking about, but I have to show that a little bit to other people. The way lawyers do it is through writing. Though not everybody loves to write, there are different styles to write in. You don't have to write a treatise or a chapter in a treatise. It could also be a short blog post or a blurb on LinkedIn.

But if you don't get into the topic of your substance, it's one thing for you to know you're great at it and you know everything about launching equity plans prior to an IPO. But how are your potential clients going to know that you know that?

Elise Holtzman: Right. You also mentioned this idea that some people will find out about you by reading something you wrote. But I think what you are hinting at, and I just want to bring to the forefront, is that there are people who will hear your name, and then they start researching you. "Oh, you should talk to Sandra Cohen." Then they look up Sandra Cohen.

If Sandra Cohen has never been heard from before, then maybe you don't have that credibility. But then they say, "Oh, she's written all these articles. She's spoken on all of these panels." So they're using this stuff to research you as well.

Sandra Cohen: Exactly. That builds the credibility. Among lawyers—this gets to the relationship part—a lot of people will ask a lawyer they know to recommend another lawyer for the special problem that they have. That's where the referrals come in. It's almost like the referring lawyer that's in between the client and the individual who can solve the problem, it's that lawyer that's doing the screening and looking for credibility and what are the factors.

Sometimes it's what you've written, in which publications they are, and that, "Oh yes, she knows what she's talking about. I've looked at her profile. That's the lawyer for you."

Elise Holtzman: Right. And lawyers are not like anybody, nobody wants to make a referral if they don't feel good about you. Lawyers want to be a hero for somebody else, and they also want to make sure that they're not getting themselves in trouble. So that credibility for the referral source is very important.

Sandra Cohen: Now, people might ask, "Do I have to write a lot? Do I really have to write a whole book?" I mean, because you'll get pitched books to write for business development. I don't really thing so. I would encourage people to maybe once a year have something that makes them look more up to date.

You don't want to look at your bio and see the last thing was 2017 where you were speaking at a conference. You want to have something maybe with 2025 on it. But for me, that's enough. A little bit every year.

Elise Holtzman: I know the term "thought leadership" is kind of a fraught term. I don't always love that term because I think what happens is that it gets thrown around and then people say "thought leadership, well, I haven't had an original thought. I do the same thing everybody else does. I don't have original thoughts," or they're young lawyers and they say, "Well, I don't have enough experience under my belt to be considered a thought leader."

So what advice would you have for younger lawyers or even slightly more senior lawyers who think that the concept of thought leadership is too lofty a goal? They don't really have anything original to say or write about. How do you get started with something when you think that maybe you're not at that super senior level yet?

Sandra Cohen: Know why you're doing it. You can re-label it. You don't have to call it thought leadership. But clients want to hire lawyers they trust and who know their field. So writing about what you already know—even if it's not the most format-novel idea that we think law thought leadership means—is still important.

Because you might know all the law, but if you don't show it, if your bio doesn't reflect the experience you already have with that work, then writing something about it can fill the gap. Not just tell clients, you're showing clients that you know something.

But I know—I agree with you—I think what you're saying is many younger lawyers believe they need to write about a groundbreaking development before they can contribute to thought leadership, and I just don't think that's true. There's value in writing about familiar subjects.

Some of our best content comes from our most common client questions. The ones we think are easy to answer or answerable. It's not about being the foremost expert, but by making complex issues understandable, you can show what you know that way.

For people that are unsure about writing, I just recommend junior lawyers would start very small. Like I mentioned, once a year is fine. You also don't have to do it alone. It's okay. Co-author with a colleague. Interview an expert.

If you're an associate at a law firm, maybe set up an interview with one of the partners who does know all the answers. You're still on the topic, and that interview can go on your bio. Maybe moderate a panel where you're inviting experts to come give their thought.

That puts you in front of the right people, and those are all things you do without having an academic brain that writes a complex law journal article. There's lots you can do. If you're not an expert, go interview someone you admire. Over time, those connections that I just mentioned—where you're moderating the panel, you're not necessarily on the panel, you're not the keynote speaker—that's okay. You've invited the keynote speaker.

All those connections will lead to bigger opportunities. Creating content like that can be a powerful networking tool.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah. All of those things are great advice, and I love the idea of not having to do it yourself. If you're a junior, say to one of your partners in the firm, "Hey, I'd love to write an article on this, and I'm happy to do the heavy lifting. Would you do it with me?" Then just make sure you're getting the second name on the byline and go with it.

The other thing is—and you mentioned this, Sandra—sometimes it's the stuff that we think is the most obvious that actually needs the articles written on it. So things like, "Five steps to whatever" or "Five things to do before you do X, Y, and Z," where you're just giving simple steps to people.

People love those sorts of things, and I think that it reinforces for them that they actually know what they're talking about. I think that waiting for some eureka moment where something comes along that nobody else has ever heard about, you're going to be waiting a long time, to your point.

Sandra Cohen: If five steps is too many, do two. "Two big mistakes that companies make before embarking on..." whatever the project that you want to write about is.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah, sometimes I think thinking of the title first is really helpful, or even just giving yourself those kinds of titles—"Three steps to XYZ"—and your ideas can come from that. But when you know that you want three steps or you want five steps, it makes the article writing easier.

As you pointed out, you don't have to be writing a treatise. Nobody wants to read a treatise. People have short attention spans these days, or not nobody, but not your average reader. People who really want to dive in will read a treatise, but for capturing people's attention, you might want to write something shorter where you're giving them some quick tips.

So think about, as you said, what are your clients worried about? What is keeping them up at night? Then give them a little bit of advice or something to think about.

Also on the panel discussion idea, so we've talked a lot about writing and you mentioned moderating a panel or being on a panel, how did you get involved in those? Did you throw your hat into the ring and say, "Hey, I'd like to be on a panel," or do you feel like people just found you and asked you?

Sandra Cohen: Some of both, to be honest. I devoted considerable time to bar association activities with other employee benefit lawyers, in my case, on the American Bar Association, and then getting to chair a subcommittee when I was a senior associate, junior partner.

When you do that, your job is to make sure there's content for the next meeting. All of our Bar Association officers love to have a little help. "Hey, I have an idea for a topic. If you're interested in this topic, I'll run with it and pull together a panel." So I think I did that.

I did another thing that I think you'd like one time. I just remember one particular time I got invited to speak. It was because for my local group, I pulled together a local group of employee benefits lawyers and gave a CLE credit on ethics in employee benefits. And you know how everyone's looking for an ethics credit, and it was a lot of work to pull together.

I posted on LinkedIn that I had just done that for a lunch group. Sure enough, because of LinkedIn, somebody who was at the ABA saw my post and said, "We need that topic for an upcoming conference." That was a travel conference that had an audience of 200 people and said, "Would you do that for us?" And I was pretty a young lawyer then and didn't realize the power of LinkedIn for that kind of thing. I thought it was just a throwaway post—"Oh, I already did this luncheon topic"—and I got to do it again by being invited on it.

It also doesn't hurt if they change the law and you start writing about the new law. Because even if other people are writing about it, because then they're like, "Okay, there's something new for the bar associations they want to have a speaker about, and you've already written about it."

Elise Holtzman: Well, that just reminded me of a couple of things. There's so much good advice in here, and I want to try to pull some of it out.

So first of all, putting things on social media, we're going to talk about social media a little bit more in a minute. But also, once you have something, you can repurpose it. So don't necessarily throw it away. Let people know that you've done it and say, "Oh, I frequently write about this topic," or, "I've spoken on this topic," and then somebody else may well come along and say, "Hey, can you do it for us as well?" Which is something that I've really relied on even in my own business.

So, spreading it far and wide and letting people know that this is something you do, ethics credit is always a good way to get people in the room. I'm not going to lie about that. That's not always a possibility, but it's a good one if you can do it.

I just want to get back to this idea of advice for people who aren't necessarily doing this already. So we talked about younger lawyers who may be a little intimidated by the concept of thought leadership. What about some more senior lawyers? Because you and I both know that senior lawyers, many of them, can be just as put off, I guess, by marketing and business development.

If there are more senior lawyers who want to get started with thought leadership, with creating articles that are helpful, with getting out there and speaking on panels, is there different advice that you would have for them or is it similar?

Sandra Cohen: Well, my advice, I have a quote for senior lawyers. It probably applies to everybody at every stage of life, but it's: "Don't stumble over something that's behind you."

Don't stumble over something that's behind you. So someone told you no once, and you've been intimidated about business development. Or you thought you're not good at it. Or you think it involves sales and you don't want to be salesy. Well, you don't have to be. You don't have to be what you used to be. You can make a change now.

My advice to senior lawyers is to remind them really it's just about making friends. I think women are particularly good at this. This is something, women are excellent at business development and relationships because there’s some inherent skills that make it easier for us to make friends.

That's a generalization about how men make friends, but I think there's some truism there that I'm encouraging women to go out and become rainmakers. I think it's also important to cultivate an abundance mindset. I do truly think I have that. I have it more and more, the more senior I get.

I'd never look back over a lost client. "Don't stumble over something that's behind me," because I know there's more. There's a lot of business going on, flowing back and forth among different firms, and there's always a chance that another piece of that business will come your way. But only if you're sort of out there getting known, getting more people to know, like, and trust you.

People give business to people they know, like, and trust. We've learned that from sales courses, and I do think it's true. So you're asking yourself, "Well, who do I know? Who's known me a long time?" "How did I get them to sort of remember me?" is a useful exercise.

It sometimes requires sitting down, maybe even with a coach on business development. I coach the lawyers at my firm regularly on different ways to get ready for a conference, for example, and what to do before, during, and after.

I know, Elise, you have an excellent podcast on what to do getting ready before you go to a conference, what to do at the conference, and afterwards. So we go over those tips, exactly how you gave them, that I think your audience would really enjoy listening to that part of that episode.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah, thanks for mentioning that. So if you haven't listened to that one yet, you might want to do that. It's all about how to get the most ROI—return on investment—from conference attendance. Because I think a lot of people just sort of go, show up, wonder why they really didn't get much out of it, and then come back and convince themselves that they shouldn't go and do something like that again.

I love what you say about an abundance mentality. I think you and I have talked about that in the past. And one of the ways I put it in my business is: "There are 1.3 million lawyers in the United States, and I can't serve all of them" as a coach and consultant.

So, yeah, I have competitors out there. If I didn't have competitors out there, I might wonder whether there's any need for what I do. But I think that having that abundance mentality and sharing information and ideas with other people who are similarly situated actually leads to good things.

Then the idea of the "know, like, and trust." So we talk quite a bit about that. Let's talk about a couple of things when it comes to the know-like-and-trust factor and developing that with potential clients and referral sources.

We mentioned the relationship-building idea, and I know that you are really, really good at that, and you think it's really important. What role have your personal relationships played in building the firm? You've mentioned it, but maybe you can tell us some specifics. And then how have you been intentional about nurturing those relationships and growing your network?

Sandra Cohen: This is my favorite part about building a law firm. I feel like I'm doing business with friends. The people who refer work to us, they are mostly other lawyers and they're just wanting to help their clients and friends like you've mentioned before. I think that in addition to know, like, and trust, they also have to remember you. So that “remember” has to be at the end of this "know, like, and trust." How do people remember you?

One-on-one touch is always remembered, such as a handwritten thank you note. I have given corny thank you notes, especially during the Thanksgiving weekend. I sit down and start to really think about the people who have made an impact on my business and they don't even know it. So I tell them.

I probably have it in me to write three of those thank you notes. I'm like, well, that's fine. That's three more people that are like, "Wow, I really helped somebody." But that's the one-on-one.

There's still plenty of value to an email marketing campaign. Even, frankly, if they don't open your email, just that they're getting regular notices from the lawyer about topics of interest so that they remember what you do. Because a little bit, it's largely timing. There's a lot of people who would love to refer business to you, they just don't have that coming in, and they will remember the next person who comes along to talk to them.

We also use social media, especially LinkedIn, to remain visible to our network.

LinkedIn is a murky place. A lot of lawyers are nervous about it because I think it's a little bit quieter than other forms of social media. They don't want to be the TikTok lawyer, so what do you do with LinkedIn?

You don't get as many engagements like likes and comments, but people are watching and they're lurking. I know this because of comments they make to me off of LinkedIn. Things like, "Wow, Sandra, your firm has really grown." I'm like, "Well, how do they know that?" The only way they know that is sometimes my firm posts on LinkedIn when we added a new lawyer.

So I know they're watching, they just aren't always engaging with that content. That, I think, has been useful to get to be remembered a little bit too. I think one of the most powerful things I have done that helps me develop my business today I did years ago, and I engage in several kinds of peer groups—several of them I run and organize—of like-minded people.

So it's an affinity peer group, like a lunch group of executive compensation lawyers, that has been so valuable at every stage of my career, even as an associate. There's a group of lawyers that we have gotten together almost once a month now for 22 years. Those people are partners at other law firms practicing in exactly the same area that I'm in, but they've known me a long time, and they refer management teams and executives to Cohen & Buckmann for representations when they can't take them on the matter, and I'm really very grateful for them.

It was never for business development. It was always kind of content, professional networking, sharing substantive ideas. But it naturally founded real true friendships from those professional networks that have turned into business.

Elise Holtzman: I want to highlight that because many people get frustrated with business development fairly quickly—and understandably so—because they feel like they're putting effort into something and they're not seeing the results right away.

So while instant gratification is something that certainly all of us would like to have, what you're pointing out is that business development really is about the long haul. You didn't even go into creating these peer groups with the idea that you were going to get business from it. You were just looking for information and looking to share information and make some friends in the industry.

Yet over time, you've all grown to know each other so well and become friends, and you know what each other's strengths are. Then, to your point, some of them are much larger firms, so they're going to get conflicted out of things. Or maybe there are things that don't have enough zeros at the end in terms of how large the matter is that your firm may be uniquely situated to take.

Sandra Cohen: There's one thing that I do with more intention than other things, and that is that I give away a lot of business too. Matters come into our firm that aren't quite right for us. For example, we're executive compensation lawyers and employee benefit lawyers, but we're not litigators. I maintain a list of litigators that I know, like, and trust.

When the right matter comes on, I refer business out—corporate matters, litigation matters. While I can always improve about tracking who I sent business to, I can assure you there is not one law firm that I have any kind of one tit-for-tat referral relationship with. I expect nothing back in return.

But I know that one of the powerful tools that I have is I have business to give to other lawyers, and they have business to give to me. We're all doing that in order to help our clients. So if a client comes to me with a problem and it's not something Sandra Cohen can fix, I am giving it away.

I know that other lawyers who don't have a business development mindset sometimes will say, "Oh, that's not really my area. I don't litigate. You probably need a litigator for that." They let it go. I think of every one of those matters that I can't service as something that can help me help someone else and help me build someone else's business.

So I do that. Giving away business can be very powerful and interesting, and it also helps me make new relationships. I have found lawyers in fields that I've never touched in. I didn't know them. I read their bios, their content marketing worked on me. Then I call and interview and have a call with them and get to know them. I would say that at our firm culturally, we are interested in making new friends for long-term relationships.

Elise Holtzman: You mentioned social media a couple of minutes ago, and we talked about the idea of, first of all, posting some of your thought content on there and saying, "Hey, I spoke on this panel," or, "Hey, here's an article that I just wrote."

How much is social media just something that you do to put that stuff out there, or really part of your marketing strategy?

Sandra Cohen: So I think it is part of our marketing strategy. We use social media, particularly LinkedIn, to increase visibility for the content we already produced. It helps stay in touch with our friends and referral partners, and in that way, it helps reach potential clients.

Elise Holtzman: I also think that—you mentioned this idea and I love this—that it's know, like, trust, and remember. The way that I put it is Top-Of-Mind Awareness, or TOMA. Marketers will call it TOMA— Top-Of-Mind Awareness.

The social media, as you say, does help with that. The email marketing helps with that, right? Because if you keep seeing somebody show up and share what they know, or even comment on other people's stuff and make substantive comments, you feel like, first of all, they know what they're talking about.

There's the know, like, and trust piece. Then there's the "remember." How many times, if you walk down the street, I mean, you're in New York City. How many times do you walk down the street, run into somebody that you haven't seen for a while, and say, "Oh my gosh, I haven't seen you for a while. We should get lunch"?

It doesn't mean that the reason you didn't get lunch isn't because you didn't care about them before. It's because you just weren't top of mind for each other. Everybody's busy. So putting this stuff on social media—and in your case, LinkedIn—knowing where your referral sources and clients are hanging out helps with that remembering piece.

Sandra Cohen: It worked for me just this month. Somebody had come to us with a not-for-profit question, and there was an attorney I had met months ago. I completely forgot her name. I forgot everything about her except that, "Oh, she's the not-for-profit attorney and I think she could probably help." But darn it, I don't remember her name.

Sure enough, literally that same day that this problem came into my mind, I'm on LinkedIn and I saw a post from her about something else, content, whatever. It didn't matter what it was about, but it was about not-for-profit law. I'm like, "There you go. LinkedIn for the win."

This is a true story, even though it sounds made up. I contacted her right away and just said, "Look, I have this problem coming in. Is that the kind of thing you can do?" Of course, it was exactly what she could do. If she hadn't posted on LinkedIn, I would not have remembered her, because it was one of those things.

So it worked for her, and I'm sure it works for me too. Look, people who send us the most business and the people who are out there cheerleading in their own networks for Cohen & Buckmann's employee benefit lawyers are largely—they're lawyers who have known me a long time.

So sometimes I sit down and think, "Okay, well, how can you get more people to have known you a long time?" I think that's what you said, is it's a long game, business development. It's like watering a tree. It does not happen overnight.

Elise Holtzman: I think that the more sophisticated the work... So if somebody is listening who is more like a local, Main Street sort of lawyer where you're B2C, you're dealing with individuals on a regular basis, and maybe you're a trusts and estates lawyer or you're a matrimonial lawyer, and you're in a community where a lot of people know each other, it's more likely that you're going to see results fairly quickly. Because everybody knows everybody, and you're in a particular situation and you need something right away.

But for those lawyers who are largely representing businesses or high-level executives at businesses, I think that the lead-up takes longer. It takes more time. There may be more layers of decision-making inside an organization. So understanding that this is the long haul, I mean, I think that people hearing that you've had this networking group for 22 years, I think it's just so valuable because it indicates that not only does it take some time—I'm not suggesting it takes 22 years, by the way—but not only does it take some time, but it continues to be valuable.

These are people that, over time, have supported one another with information, with referrals, with friendship.

Sandra Cohen: With job changes, people in these groups have all switched jobs, become partners together over this time, and many of them are still leading executive compensation departments at major law firms. They were all ambitious people trying to learn about the field. That's why we were getting together. Now we do business together.

Elise Holtzman: Sandra, I haven't heard you say one thing about selling to people. I want to make it as clear as possible to everybody listening that I love this conversation because, as you know, these are my soapbox issues. And hearing you talk about it from the position of a founder and managing partner of a very, very successful law firm, to hear you say that you've never been out there selling to people, you're not beating your chest and telling everybody how great you are, you're not taking out billboard ads and things like that, you're developing relationships, you're sharing content that could be valuable to people, I think is so important.

Sandra Cohen: Well, when you're in a room full of people who have problems that you can solve, you're not selling anything. They're leaping over the table to try to talk to you. Now, what's that room? That can be an imaginary room full of people in order to find your audience. And it can be a real room or a Zoom room of people that you've brought together to listen to your content or webinar. Or it can literally be a room.

I know my audience, but me personally, I like to meet more corporate lawyers and M&A transactional attorneys at the kinds of law firms that don't have a big executive comp and employee benefits department like the major Wall Street firms have. Lots of smaller firms have deals with the same complex problems. If I'm introduced to those kinds of corporate lawyers, they know what to talk to me about. There's no sale. I'm like, yes, it's like kismet when we have that conversation.

I know what they need, their problems are what I'm talking about, their client's problems that I can solve for them, is the kind of room you want to be in.

Elise Holtzman: Yeah. This is doing some prep work in advance and knowing what rooms to be in and knowing who you can serve and not just running around and doing scattershot marketing, which first of all is highly frustrating, and second of all, doesn’t work anyway.

So Sandra, as we wrap up our time here together today, I’m going to ask you a question that I ask all of my guests at the end of the show. There’s a phenomenon called the curse of knowledge, where experts sometimes forget that what is so obvious and natural to them is not at all obvious to others. When it comes to attracting clients to your law practice or your law firm, what’s a principle or piece of advice that may seem obvious to you but is important for people to hear?

Sandra Cohen: Business development is like watering a tree. It doesn’t happen overnight. It’s slow, it’s little bits at a time.

Make friends, stay in touch with your new friends. Your new friends will become old friends. I can think of lots of small touches you can do to stay in contact with them, culminating with the biggest one, which might be to send them a referral of business or ask them a business question in their area, and to be a little bit intentional about staying in touch that way.

Elise Holtzman: Fantastic. Thank you so much for being here, Sandra. It’s really my pleasure to finally be able to host you. Very exciting for me, and I’m sure the listeners as well.

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