Vicki Odette | How Leading Rainmakers Play the Long Game in Business Development

Elise Holtzman: Hi, everyone. It's Elise Holtzman here, a former practicing lawyer and the host of The Lawyer's Edge Podcast. Welcome back for another episode.

We're going to talk about what many of you know is my favorite topic today, and that is business development and making rain. Many lawyers shy away from business development, seeing it as intimidating or out of reach. But building a thriving book of business is possible and transformative for both your career and your firm.

In this episode, we're going to explore how one top rainmaker developed her skills, overcame challenges, and has built lasting client relationships, along with some practical advice for lawyers who want to grow their own practices with confidence. Before we dive in, today's episode is brought to you by the Ignite Women's Business Development Accelerator, a nine-month business development program created by women lawyers for women lawyers. Ignite is a carefully designed business development program containing content, coaching, and a community of like-minded women who are committed to becoming rainmakers and supporting the retention and advancement of other women in the profession. To learn more about Ignite, visit thelawyersedge.com/ignite.

I am delighted to welcome my guest today, Vicki Odette, a partner at Haynes Boone in Dallas. Haynes Boone is an Am Law 100 firm with more than 700 lawyers across 19 offices worldwide. Vicki is a member of the firm's executive committee and is the Global Chair of the Investment Management Practice Group. Her law practice focuses on advising fund sponsors and investors on structuring and negotiating private equity, hedge fund, and venture capital investments. She also advises ultra-high-net-worth individuals and families—those with net worths exceeding $1 billion—on business planning for family offices and their investments.

In 2024, the Minority Corporate Counsel Association, one of the legal profession's premier diversity, equity, and inclusion organizations, named Vicki a recipient of its 2024 Rainmakers Award. I am so excited to talk to you, Vicki. Welcome to The Lawyer’s Edge.

Vicki Odette: Hi, it's good to be here.

Elise Holtzman: I am so happy to talk to you. As I mentioned before, and I'll out myself on this a little bit, when I saw that you had been recognized by the MCCA as a rainmaker, I tracked you down and invited you to be on the podcast. You took a chance on me, so I'm grateful for that because, as you and I discussed, I love featuring rainmakers on my podcast, particularly women rainmakers. So if you would, tell me a little bit about your path to becoming a rainmaker. At what point in your career did you start doing business development?

Vicki Odette: So I started pretty much from the beginning. I was pretty fortunate that I had some mentors in the firm who emphasized how important it was to start early because this is a marathon, not a sprint. You're going to have to work on business development for years before you may see results.

It started with things that seemed pretty basic—joining local bar organizations, the state bar, getting on committees at the national bar, helping to write either articles or submissions to the government, things like that. Charitable organizations, just getting to know your peers around town. As they grow in their practice and their organizations, you grow with them. The odds of getting business when you're a young attorney are very slim, but it's setting the path and laying the groundwork that someday will be fruitful.

So that's really how I started. Also, I would keep up with law school friends. Most of my law school classmates went in-house or used it as an MBA rather than going to Biglaw, which was helpful. Then, over time, as some of my colleagues would leave to go in-house, I would keep up with them just to keep that connection going. It really does pay off in the long run. Then later, as I became a little more experienced, I started doing research to help partners write articles or speeches, and then worked my way into doing the same.

Elise Holtzman: Do you feel like you naturally knew how to do this stuff? Many people will say that they don't know how to go about developing business. They have this vague sense that you have to know the right people and that you have to be a partner who knows everything about their practice area. So they're afraid to start out, and they feel like if they're going to do it, somebody needs to teach it to them. How did you learn the skills and behaviors that you now have as a rainmaker?

Vicki Odette: So I had no clue what to do either. I didn't come from a family of lawyers or big businessmen, so I really didn't know what to do. What I did was I would look at the successful partners in the firm and follow them and see what they did. I would ask questions: how did you get that client? How did you start your career in business development? What did you do? What is successful for you?

There is no one-size-fits-all, so that's why I thought it was important to really talk to a lot of different people, figure out what works for me and what works for me may not work for someone else. That's why I think you have to be proactive. You need to ask those questions of successful partners—how did you do it, what's important, what worked for you, what didn't. Then you learn along the way, and you have to try a lot of different things to see what does work. Some things are going to work for you and others aren't.

But I think really taking your career into your own hands and finding people who are successful and looking at what they do and asking those questions was really helpful to me.

Elise Holtzman: Did you ever try something that you saw somebody else do and discover it really wasn't for you?

Vicki Odette: Yes. That's the thing. I mean, part of it is I think you have to step outside your comfort zone. As a young attorney, one of my areas of specialization is tax. I would go to meetings, and I would be the only woman in a sea of men. It was very intimidating for me at first to think, "How am I going to go up to these people and talk to them and make a connection?"

So it really pushed me outside my comfort zone. I had to find little tricks that would help me, where I would view it as, "Okay, pretend I'm the host of this meeting and I have to make everyone feel comfortable." It made it easier for me to approach people. But that’s still, to me, one of the harder things to do. I can speak in front of thousands of people and have no problem. But you tell me, go in a room with these 50 people and you have to introduce yourself and make everyone feel comfortable, it’s still a bit of a challenge.

But it’s one of those things that you just have to keep doing it and keep practicing it. You’ll get better with time and find little tricks that help you. At the end of the day, if there’s something that just doesn’t work for you, I tell people that work with me, if it doesn’t work for you, don’t do it. Because it will be clear to people if you don’t enjoy what you’re doing and you feel awkward, other people are going to feel awkward. So try to find those things that fit your personality the best and work with it from there.

Elise Holtzman: I think that’s a really important point because one of the things that I see happening sometimes in law firms is the way that they will “train” lawyers to do business development is bring in a panel of very senior partners from the firm who talk about how they developed business. What happens, I think, sometimes is the people in the room will look at these partners and they say, "Well, I can’t do that. That’s not who I am. I can’t develop business that way." The conclusion that they come to is that, hey, this isn’t going to work for me because if I have to do it that way, I’m not going to do it at all.

So the idea that you can interview people, go out to lunch with them, take them for coffee, ask them what they did and what worked for them, but then pick and choose what’s a good fit for you, I think is really important, and not to feel that you have to do it the way somebody else does it.

Vicki Odette: Exactly. Some people, I think, young attorneys think you have to be that life of the party to be a big business developer. It’s really interesting because I would find people in the firm who surprisingly had very large books of business who were very introverted.

People would say, "How does he or she have that much business?" So it was fascinating to me to find out what they did. It gave me a lot of comfort that you don't have to be the life of the party. There are other ways to do it. Developing those one-on-one relationships, getting a reputation of being just a fantastic lawyer, and word of mouth. There are a lot of different ways to get business, and it doesn't have to be that you’re the life of the party on the golf course.

So I thought that was very important for me to see. I think it's important for other young attorneys to see as well, because a lot of attorneys, we are intellectual introverts, and don't necessarily feel comfortable entertaining everyone. So it's good to know that there are many different paths. Don't get discouraged. Understand, particularly when you're young, like I said, it's a marathon. It's going to take time. You won't see results for a while. But when you do start seeing them, you're going to feel so relieved that all that work really paid off. So just don't get discouraged and keep trying.

Elise Holtzman: It's really exciting for people when things start to happen. Like you said, it can take a long time to see those results, so, to your point, not throwing in the towel too early, I think, is really good advice. Thank you for sharing that. I think that at your stage, having done this for so long and so successfully, it's helpful to hear from you that you still run into some things that maybe are uncomfortable for you but that you get past them.

Vicki Odette: Yes. I think that's the key, is really keep trying, find those things that work for you, and understand that you may never be perfect at everything. And that's okay. Be good at the things that you're really good at and just keep trying on the things that you're not great at, because you still learn tricks. I will go to events with some of the younger partners, and they have a different style. I look at it and go, "Wow, I just learned something from them."

So I think keeping an open mind and understanding that every day is a learning experience, you can learn things from a variety of different people that can help you along the way. You don't necessarily have to look at the most successful partner in the firm, because there could be others who are still successful, but they may have a more subtle technique that works better for you. I think the benefit of being in Biglaw is that there are so many examples. Don't feel like you have to put yourself in a box and emulate just one or two people.

Elise Holtzman: I'm realizing, Vicki, as we're talking, that we're making an assumption that somebody would want to do this, right? So from your perspective, what has made this rewarding for you? What are the benefits that you have seen for yourself and perhaps for your firm for all the hard work that you've put in over the years trying to develop business for yourself and for them?

Vicki Odette: Well, I've really become friends with my clients. I know their spouses' names, their kids' names, their pets' names, the vacations that they take. I think it's nice when your clients become your friends. The more they like you, the more they're going to refer you to other people, and the more you enjoy your job.

I love coming to work and talking to my clients. It just makes your job so much more fun, and you get invested in them. When I talk to clients, I always say, we—We need to think about this. “We,” because I feel like I'm part of their team, and they feel like I'm part of their team. That trust relationship and that close connection we have from not only being attorney and client but also friends, so they know I'm here. I have their back. I have their best interest in mind.

If I see an article or something in the paper or magazine that might be relevant to them, I'll forward it to them: “Hey, I was just thinking about you,” or “I'm thinking about this issue you were going through.” I think that personal touch really helps in business development. Plus, it just makes our job so much more enjoyable because what we do is challenging and we all work really hard. So let's make it fun, too. I think your life will be much better.

Elise Holtzman: What about the agency piece, in the sense that many rainmakers report that they feel like they have more control over their own careers, the kinds of things that they work on, their ability to command higher compensation, whatever it may be, their ability to step into leadership roles? I mentioned that you're on the executive committee of your firm, and you're also your global practice group leader. So can you talk a little bit about how you think that's changed things for you?

Vicki Odette: Yeah, it's something that I was always interested in. As a young partner, I would volunteer for things, even as a senior associate, I would volunteer for any sort of leadership position in the firm, even if it didn't come with a title initially, where I worked behind the scenes to help. I think people saw the commitment and then would say, "Well, would you like to be in leadership?"

I do love the fact that you have more autonomy and more control. When you have your own clients, you can command a much higher salary. You can have more of a say in the growth of the firm. Now, it may depend on the style of the firm. Fortunately, our firm is very collegial, and we love input. So it's so nice that you're allowed this ability to really grow a great practice, be in leadership, but also have a say in management.

I think it's really linked to, obviously, the people in the firm who have the most business are the ones that have the most say in the business and get the most compensation. For me, that was something that was very appealing because I love the firm. I feel like, as an owner, it's part of my responsibility to take leadership positions. So that's the key to business development—or the key benefit—is the more business you have, the more say you have in your life. You just really do, instead of being a slave, in effect, to someone else.

Elise Holtzman: Looking back, what are the things that you've done—the strategies or tactics, if you want to call them, the activities that you've engaged in when it comes to business development—that, for you at least, we've talked about this idea that people can do it in many different ways, that for you have driven results?

Vicki Odette: First is really just having the client feel like you're almost in-house with them because you really care about every aspect of their business, and not just the legal. What I do is dive into an industry. When I first got my first big oil and gas client, I dug in, and I learned so much about oil and gas that didn’t necessarily have to do with the aspects of the work I was doing for them.

But it made me a better all-around lawyer and business developer because I could talk to them about the needs of the company and then cross-sell. “Oh, you’re having this issue? Well, I happen to have a partner who’s an expert in that. Let me introduce you.” So I think when clients feel like you are so invested in them that they feel like they’re your number one client—I want all my clients to feel like they are my number one client. When they feel that way, I get more work from them, and I have more trust and more leverage in the sense of if I’m on a vacation, they’re very good about saying, “Okay, I know you’re on vacation. What time works for you?”

Because we’re also friends and they know that I’m committed to them and I really want the best for them. So I think that is something that really works well for me, is having that personal connection and having them feel like I put them first.

Elise Holtzman: I want to highlight that here for a minute because what you’re saying is making me think about two different categories that I want people to focus on. One is the getting of the business, the getting of the new client. Something that I think many people who are not experienced business developers forget about is the idea of how you retain these clients and then how you can get additional work from the same clients.

Not because you’re there to suck the money out of their pockets, right? But because you’re there, as you say, to serve them in other ways that they need. What I hear you talking about is one of the ways I drive business is by being such a great resource to my clients and understanding what they need in their business that I can say to them, “Hey, I think we may need to do this. We can be supportive of you if that’s something that you’re interested in doing.” So I love this idea.

This is kind of client retention and growth. It's something that we have to be very aware of. Once the client comes in, you've got to take good care of the client.

Vicki Odette: Exactly. One of the things I do is I set internet alerts on when articles or things come out about my clients, I immediately get it and can read it to see if there’s something going on that I can be proactive and reach out to them about. So if I see a lawsuit that’s just been filed—I’m not a litigator—but if I see any lawsuit filed, I’m immediately on top of it. I’m so familiar with their organization that I know exactly what they’re going to need. I can reach out and say, “Hey, I saw you guys just had this lawsuit filed. I have a great business litigator, oil and gas litigator, whatever it is, that I’d love to introduce you to.”

Also, watching how your clients grow in their financial needs and status. If you see a client starting to struggle a little bit financially, maybe it’s time to bring in a restructuring lawyer to talk to them and be very proactive so that if they do have some bankruptcy or restructuring need, you’ve been there coaching them before they really needed it. So anticipating their needs is something that’s really important.

Like you said, you can only do that if you really dive in and get to know their business and all angles of their business. There’s so much available on the internet. So many firms have big business development organizations that can pull data for you. So I really try to stay on top of every aspect of the clients, how they’re doing financially, where they’re expanding, where they’re having issues. I think that helps me not only provide better service for them but also cross-sell my partners to them in different areas that I’m not an expert in but that they could really use the expertise.

Elise Holtzman: Going back to this idea of bringing in the clients in the first place, which activities do you think were most successful for you and maybe most fun for you? What are some of the things that you enjoy doing that drove business for you, especially in the early days?

Vicki Odette: I think I personally like a lot of smaller group activities where you invite 10 in-house counsel to a roundtable or a dinner. Really getting to know someone, I think, is better than big events where you have two minutes with someone because the more you can make that personal connection—and I think this is my biased opinion—that women tend to do a little better, is we really get to know people on a personal level.

We’re not afraid to ask those questions: “Tell me about your kids. Where do you go on vacation?” and get that conversation going to where you can easily slide into “Let’s talk about what bothers you. What’s your biggest fear at work? What’s your biggest concern? What keeps you up at night?” Then they feel more comfortable talking to you about that.

So I think the smaller group activities where you really get that one-on-one time were really successful for me. Something else that I’ve done over the years that’s really important is I would do a lot of pitches for work, even if I knew I was probably the stalking horse and not going to get the work, the practice is so important. Even to this day, I’ll do pitches knowing the likelihood I may be competing with five different firms, but I still do it because that practice is so important.

You never know when you’re going to be thrown these oddball questions where you have to figure out how to respond on your feet. It’s really important because I do see a lot of younger partners struggle in pitches where things don’t go the way they want. They think they’re pitching for one thing, but they’re really pitching for another. How do you handle that? How do you handle it when someone’s all about price instead of about quality?

So I did and do a lot of pitches, and I think that’s really important, even if you know or don’t think you’re going to get the work, because it’s so critical to get that practice in. You never know when that person goes somewhere else and be like, “You know what? I really liked them.” I’ve had people call me three years later, and they’re at a different shop. It’s so interesting when that happens.

Elise Holtzman: Two things that you’re talking about. One is the proactivity, the intentionality of putting together those small groups. That’s not the same as just saying, "Oh, the Bar Association is having a thing next Wednesday night, I’ll just go to that. They created it, I’ll go to it, I’ll show up, and hope something good comes out of it." That’s thinking in advance and making a determination about what would be valuable to the people that you want to put in the room, and making it happen. You get to be a people connector. They think of you as somebody who puts these interesting things together. You get to know them really well, as you said.

Then the other thing that you mentioned is what we would have called when I was younger “stick-to-itiveness,” where you’re doing these pitches even if you know you may not get the business, the odds aren’t great. How do you deal with the disappointment of not getting these things sometimes? I mean, there are going to be “failures,” right? You’re going to knock yourself out and think that you’re going to get something and then it turns out not to happen. So how do you manage that from a psychological perspective, I guess? And what would you say to other people about the disappointments along the way?

Vicki Odette: Yeah, and you’re going to have to—I call it—kiss a lot of frogs. You will, and you’re going to think, “I should have won this. I’m so frustrated I didn’t.” But it's okay. You have to get to a point where you understand you’re not going to get everything. You’re not going to be a fit for everyone. Some of the reasons you may not get work may have nothing to do with you. It may be the price. It may be the name of the firm. They wanted a bigger name, or they wanted a more local name, or they wanted a smaller firm.

There are so many different reasons why you may not get work that you can’t internalize it and think, “Oh, I’m just bad at this.” You can learn. So sometimes if I lose a pitch, I’ll actually ask, “Hey, do you mind telling me why you picked this firm over us?" for a learning experience. Sometimes it’s very interesting. Sometimes it’s very comforting. “Hey, it was a price issue. We couldn’t afford you.” Or “Hey, we needed a top 10 law firm in the nation,” kind of thing. So I think asking those questions is fine and learning about it, but don’t internalize it and think, “Oh, I’m just so bad at this,” because you’re not going to win all of them, as you said. You absolutely won’t.

So just keep doing it. Keep proceeding. When you do get feedback—“We thought you weren’t as strong in X, Y, or Z, and we needed that”—think about that and think, “Okay, so on my next pitch, how do I make that better?” We’re not perfect. Even now, I’ve been doing this for 30 years, I still need guidance and feedback and to be open and receptive to it. It is, I think, one of the keys.

Elise Holtzman: Are there particular instances of running into a challenge that you remember? I know you’re talking about the challenges generally, but were there a couple of challenges that came up along the way for you that stand out in your mind?

Vicki Odette: Yes. It’s interesting because I have a big tax background as well. I would go to meetings with all men. Here I am, the only woman, and on the other side are men—partners, male partners. Here I am, a female senior associate or a young female partner. I would have someone on the other side say, “I have daughters your age,” or “Oh, you’re the paralegal. Are you the one taking notes?”

That can always be a bit of a challenge—being either a young woman or the only woman in the room. I never would get offended. I would just roll with it and be like, “Well, that’s great,” and then proceed, but still have that confidence. The challenge would be, “Wow, they think I’m young. They think I’m inexperienced. They think I can’t do this.” So having that confidence and showing them, “Yes, I can do this. I may be young or I may look young or I may be a woman, but I can do this,” and not letting that bring you down or make you feel intimidated.

Because I think sometimes it’s an intimidation tactic. I would also see sometimes New Yorkers would say when they were on the other side, “I don’t know how you guys do things down here in Texas, but let me tell you how we do them in the big city.” Just don’t let that throw you. Occasionally, there will be people in this world who are a little ugly or who try to intimidate you.

I think the key is be confident. Let that, just water on a duck, roll off your back, and just maintain confidence and go forward. I know initially it can be pretty intimidating, but don't let it get to you.

Elise Holtzman: Vicki, do you see differences in approach between men and women when it comes to business development?

Vicki Odette: I really do. Men tend to be a little more aggressive than women. They tend to be better about asking for that work once they've developed that relationship. I think sometimes women feel like it should just come because “I'm here, they know I'm good, and they know I like them.” We have to ask for work too. So not feeling awkward about it. You know them, you know you're qualified. "Hey. What's the next project I can do for you? When can I do something for you?” You have to ask the question. That's one thing that I think women tend to be a little less inclined to do. So do feel like you can do that.

It's not bolstering or bragging to talk about your credentials either. I think men are very comfortable talking about how they're the best at everything. Women, we can do that as well, but it doesn't have to come off the way a man would do it. You have to do it in your own way and figure out what works for you. But I think one of the benefits for women is the personal touch. It's easier, I think, for us to get to know a client at a deeper level quicker, even though we don't go golf with them. That's fine. Learning about who they are, what they like to do, their hobbies, their kids, their vacations.

Then when you're on a call next and you're waiting for everybody to get on, you can say, “Hey, what college did your kid pick, Columbia or Stanford?” Those little personal touches that women can do—and men can do them too, but I think women are better at that—I think they tend to go a long way because everyone likes to feel like they're heard and they're valued and that they're interesting. So when you remember little tidbits about them and their families, I think it's important to making them feel like, “Hey, they value me. They think I'm important. They listen to me.”

So I think women are very good listeners as well. In meetings, sometimes I will find men tend to talk a lot and women tend to listen. That can be very helpful when you then feed back to them, “This is what I heard from you.” Really looking them in the eye and listening to them when they're talking and letting them be heard, I think, is something that women tend to be a little better at.

Elise Holtzman: Let's talk about lawyers who are just starting their journey in business development. They’d like to become a rainmaker someday. They’re just starting out. What advice would you give those folks?

Vicki Odette: I think you have to really take your career in your own hands. The first thing that I would do is seek out a mentor in the firm—someone who you really respect and you really like their style. It takes time. You have to go through and look and see, and then go to them and start asking those questions. “How did you do this? What worked for you? What didn’t? What do you recommend I do?” Particularly, people in your own practice area.

If you can find folks to say, “Hey, I did some research. These are the industry organizations. Which ones do you think would be helpful for me?” So you have to be proactive. You can’t just assume that a partner is going to come in your office and say, “Here’s all the business, here’s how you’re going to do it.” They typically don’t. You have to show that initiative and go to partners and say, “Hey, I’ve been working on this client. Next time you go to lunch with them, I’d love to go with you.” They’ll think, “Well, that’s great. Let me bring you along.”

So volunteer to do those things. Or if there are partners that you really like and you’re working with, and let’s say you do a really complicated memo on a topic, say, “Hey, can we turn this into an article? I’d love to help do this. Would you mind doing that with me?” The biggest thing is you have to be in charge of you. You’re going to be your number one fan. You’re the CEO of yourself. You have to take that initiative. But along the way, finding those mentors who can help guide you is really important. But don’t just sit there waiting to be fed.

Elise Holtzman: Absolutely. I do think that when you start being intentional and proactive about your own career growth, other people will then step in to try to help you. Because when they see that in you, they often become motivated to be helpful. But as you pointed out, they’re not going to go pluck you out of obscurity, toiling away in your office. They’re not going to help you in that way if they don’t see that you’re excited about it and that you’re moving ahead on your own power.

Vicki Odette: That’s 100% correct. I think the fact that I was so eager about it, and I would continually follow up and volunteer for things—“Hey, you don’t have a billable project for me. Do you have something non-billable I can do for you? Do you have a speech coming up that I can help you write? Do you have an article you need researched? Is there a form I can do for you? Research on a prospective client?”—just volunteering and showing them that you really care and you’re interested, then they take an interest in you.

It’s the same for me when I look at the associates that work for me. The ones who show that intellectual curiosity, that desire to be successful, that show me they want it, that tell me they want it, I’m going to be more invested in them because they’re invested in themselves. I think that’s so important to do that. Because, like you said, you’re just, you’re not going to be plucked out of the crowd and—

Elise Holtzman: Discovered. Vicki, all of this is such great advice, and I’m going to ask you for one more piece of advice. So this is a question that I ask all of my guests at the end of the show. There’s a phenomenon called the curse of knowledge, where experts sometimes forget that what is so obvious and natural to them is not at all obvious to others. When it comes to becoming a rainmaker, what’s a principle or piece of advice that may seem obvious to you, but you think is really important for people to hear?

Vicki Odette: I think it’s that clients want to see that you are interested in them and not just for their business. The business will come from it, but I think you have to have that personal touch where you show not only do you care about them as a person, but you care about their business as a whole. I think that’s so critical to business development because I believe people are going to select you as their lawyer when they feel you’re looking out for the bigger picture, not only them personally, making them look good within their organization, but that you care about the organization as a whole.

That means diving in, learning everything you can about the organization. I think that is one of the most critical pieces of business development because you can be the best lawyer in the world, but if you don’t really care about what’s going on in their business other than your small project, you don’t really care what happens to them as a client, they’re replaceable, next day, they could have a new GC, they’re going to feel that. That, I think, puts the client open to being stolen by another attorney. So that, to me, is the most crucial piece of the puzzle that I’ve discovered.

Elise Holtzman: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Vicki, for being here today. It’s been such a pleasure.

Vicki Odette: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Elise Holtzman: I’m going to thank our listeners for tuning in as well. If you’ve enjoyed today’s show, please subscribe, rate, and review us at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. In the meantime, be bold, take action, and make things happen. We’ll see you next time.